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Just a colorful divider

Debbie - I'm using the handout from COA as source for my data, and it was most likely used as basis for the Chronicle article/editorial. And based on a couple of conversations with COA volunteers/etc., that's how I am interpreting it. Obviously some folks use COA more than others so while one person may use it once or twice a year, others may do so for more than one function/activity per day and thus be counted for each usage as should be expected.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 22:51:01
John, I just think we need to be careful about interpreting numbers. The numbers that are used in the editorial need clarification.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 22:17:21
Debbie - As I understood their report, that's correct. For ex, the report shows 46 people and 1,432 participations in Fitness/exercise so appears that a total 46 unique people (residents and non-res as they didn't isolate that breakdown) attended one or more sessions for a total of 1.432 times.
If that same one person used other programs, they'd be listed in those subtotals as well.
Note the 1,066 + 171 guests in report heading, right? I believe that's non-residents who may be Chatham taxpayers but could be visitors as well.
So as I read it, that's close to roughly 2,700 unique people who used something at least once.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 21:12:50
So 1452 distinct Chatham residents over age 60 participated in COA programs? Might it be possible that one resident could have participated in lunch plus exercise plus birthday party plus socialization and thus be counted four times?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 20:09:44
Kem - welcome! Your numbers are accurate. We have been counting cars daily and except for Thursday's the average number of cars per day is 6-7. Thursday the parking lot is filled at certain times. Those overflow programs could certainly be relocated during the day to the Community Center. Or, as I suggested before - better scheduling could be utilized. I have a spreadsheet with the programs and # of cars in parking for those programs. There are many of us that do not support spending the amount of money this calls for. On another note - today they were power washing the building and it looks like they are getting ready to paint it. A day late and dollar short. WY to spend our tax dollars!
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 17:25:35
Mr. Hallgren I understand this. I am sure there are busy days. However she stated there were 16,439 participants last year. Take away those who took transportation to stores etc.(3176) 132 seniors did this and the numbers who got outreach referrals for meds, food and fuel assistance etc (3179) serving 460 seniors and the recreational and socialization programs, ie birthday parties, field trips (3352) 460 seniors did this. I am just pointing out that many of this activities are off site or one on one counseling in an office or two. I guess I am questioning the size (and perhaps need) for a new building.
kem
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 16:58:14
Kem: Welcome to the site as a poster and not just a lurker! Glad to have new inputs here given the recent lack of participation and loss of some older regulars.
As a user, I would say: The 1452 is a total nbr of resident unique people who used it but NOT how many times they used it so dividing that by 250 isn't a correct method to get daily usage.

J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 16:12:17
I have followed the room for many years but have not commented. I was born and raised in Chatham, recently returning after many years away for work. I own a home here and have watched town spending escalate with each passing year. My comments are about the COA. (and I am a senior). I believe the COA does need an upgrade (maybe even a new facility) but not to the tune of 6-8M. I want to draw your attention to the "You Guest It"in last weeks Chronicle by Judy Hanlon. She stated that in fiscal year 18-19 the center was used by 1452 seniors. OK There are about 261 weekdays in a year. Lets be fair and say 250 accounting for holidays. So 1452 seniors divided by 250 days averages out to approx. 6 participants a day. Being fair, it seems like the exercise programs are busy (46 people) but this is only offered twice a week, hence a waiting list. (I believe these exercise programs could be offered offsite -CC perhaps). They are serving many lunches- I am not sure this is a problem area or not. She stated that a total of 16,439 utilized COA last year but that number included referrals, aid and support. (I would think this would be on a 1 to 1 basis using one or two offices- perhaps even off site) and transportation to grocery, medical, and cultural events. Sorry to be so long winded just some of my thoughts and ramblings Chatham residents need to look at this expenditure very carefully.
kem
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 14:15:26
This is exactly the kind of discourse the BOS and the Town Manager should be involved in. Ground roots ideas and solutions instead of politics, process and personal gain. We as voters must continue to express our concerns for a new and different approach to projects. Fix the problems FIRST, Fish Pier deck is a disgrace, West Chatham rotaries even worse, COA, Trap Dock, overbuilt PD, FD, Airport......where does it stop? The January Town Meeting is a heavy-duty way to bully their way knowing few will be in Town, it is a total AFFRONT to our long-term Community citizens.
Emily Cunningham <dayonown@yahoo.com>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 14:10:27
To further expand on my previous thoughts: The Town bought land from the VFW in order for them to have funds for their mandated sewer hookup and other upgrades. Likewise, MCS has been under a sewer hookup order. So why not also help MCS out with the Town buying their property? MCS moves to the Ellis property and uses the funds to upgrade for their use. And no sewer hookup would be in the equation for MCS. The Town could sell Stony Hill and use the funds to defray the cost of the MCS purchase. And a sewer hookup would be available for a COA. Other ideas are welcomed!
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 07:11:42
I think that the former Ellis's property in conjunction with some of the Elementary School property, declining enrollment, should be looked into for the C.O.A. Center.
Thomas Doane <tommydoane@comcast.net>
WEST CHATHAM, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 00:19:38
I have knowledge of the deed restriction on Marion Ellis's property. Absolutely no new construction. It is to be used by children and it's to have a playground named for her husband. (There is a sign there to that effect.) It would have been wonderful if Monomoy Community Services could have moved to that building (and barn), maybe renting it from the Town. The Town would take over the property on Depot Rd. and the MCS building could be the wing of a new COA fronting on Depot Rd. I suggested this to a few Town officials with no response. So I guess it wasn't thought to be a viable option.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 20:27:13
Thank you for your encouraging words. I am a year round resident and parent - a minority in Chatham. I wanted you to be aware of how it's changed since I was a child. Security, rules and regulations that are important, but sometimes prohibitive. I'm still learning about our town and it's government, as a *gasp* washashore, but love Chatham dearly.
Kim T <khodge29@aol,com>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 19:19:26
There appears to be no satisfactory solution for a new COA building. Highly unlikely tax payers will approve the purchase of 750K for 1610 Main Street. I think it's time to be proactive and seek out another location or consider the current location. Get a head start on things and start contacting other places in town to relocate programs. Churches, the Masonic Hall and the Community Center will do for short term.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:48:33
Thank you Kim for all the information I was not aware of. I assumed the numbers were smaller and today's security issues and the Monomoy Regional agreement make it impossible . I just wish there was a creative solution to avoid another expensive project.
Emily Cunningham <dayonown@yahoo.com>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:31:50
Just wanted to thank Kim T for her post contribution here! It's only second one I have seen and want to encourage continued postings like that as said a number of things that I was thinking of re school and impracticability of using that space. Not only that, but old water dept land has (I think) some deed restrictions that may block use of that parcel as well for a COA.
J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:28:25
Just finishing reading Part 2 in the Chronicle about the flooding in the Little Beach area. Two things come to mind. 1) Could the people who bought property there not see that the land was at sea level? 2) They didn't do their homework or they would have learned that the area n the 40's and 50's flooded all the time. It seems like people who want to live next to the sea know very little about it. It is a monster, constantly changing the land it touches. The old sea captains knew this and built their homes further inland. The property owners and they alone should be responsible for any flooding, there should be no expense to the town for their foolish choices.
Barbara Stevenson <Bejsteve@gmail.mail>
San Diego , CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 17:50:52
Have to agree with Kim. Like it or not she is right. The Monomoy agreement says both towns shall maintain a separate elementary school. Truth is, we gave up town rights to all school buildings when we voted to have a Regional system. [Same goes for Harwich]Wish we could make it work but is seems to be out of the question.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 16:55:10
Use the school and push the 270 children out for how many seniors using this center? Each town has an elementary school per the Monomoy regionalization agreement. The middle school on Crowell houses students from Harwich and Chatham, there is no room to add Head Start, Pre-k and K-4 students. They would have to be in a separate location as grade 5 is now. Schools are locked, any adult must be buzzed in, signed in and have a current CORI background check to volunteer. The cafeteria is not an option due to health code regulations and we do not have an auditorium. There is a gym only. We are in process of building a playground that utilizes almost 300k in Community preservation funds. It's just not an option.
Kim T <khodge29@aol,com>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 16:41:03
Emily, I agree with you move the children up to Crowell Rd. school there should be enough room. You could build a play ground and have a bus run them to the Community building after school.
Crayton Nickerson <cnick2@comcast.net>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 13:20:39
I fail to understand why the Elementary School did not receive more scrutiny as a possibility. A declining population of children combined with an increased population of seniors could and should be worked out as a win-win! We own the land. We own the old Water Dept. adjacent. A large kitchen and auditorium are already in place. It is downtown, near Fire/paramedic services and entertainment opportunities. Seniors reading to children or just watching them on the playground would benefit both. Worries about kids witnessing emergencies is just plain life and does not happen often at our current COA. Could save millions of dollars!
Emily Cunningham <dayonown@yahoo.com>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 12:18:24
What if "they" don't like the outcome of the vote? Will it then be non/binding like the Town Manager decided the vote in West Chatham was after folks voted that down?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 18:38:59
The two articles should be in the same town meeting. The failure of one should nullify the other. We shouldn't have a meeting in January to purchase property and hope for the best in May. If we purchase in January and COA vote fails in May, what are we supposed to do, wait another year to figure out what to do with that half barren lot that Dollar Bill want s to unload on us?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 18:23:10
John, Several dates were thrown out last night - but the final date is in January for the Special Town Meeting. The voters get to decide whether or not we will purchase 1610 Main Street. In May the voters will decide whether they want to fund the new COA. As I said before, they are certainly going to be without a paddle, if the voters turn down the land purchase.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 14:08:04
AFAIK: There was never to be any vote on "proceed with a new COA" in May but just votes on money for more detailed plans and then money to build it. The decision to build a new one was made via a vote at regular BOS meeting earlier because they had determined that sufficient evidence had been presented to prove that current building was not adequate for numerous reasons and was already part of overall building upgrade/replacement plan for many years.

Now I also agree that having a special town mtg on Dec 21 may be a bad choice but in order to make any progress on project before May, they wanted to do something and the only possible first vote would be the land purchase.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 13:52:24
Alice - I don't understand why he even thought to mention a date of Dec. 21 - that was just crazy - right before Christmas. You are 100% correct in stating the BOS have now angered and alienated an entire new group of voters. Without the purchase of that land, they'll be stuck with their current location. It makes no sense whatsoever to buy that property prior to getting an ok from Town Meeting in May to proceed with a new COA. That just shows you the new lows certain folks have sunk to in order to try something this outrageous.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 13:17:51
Sorry, we meant the voters at a special will have enough votes [1/3 ] to kill the land buying.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 12:56:47
First off, we think Jeff Dykens was checking the calendar on his phone. We were looking at our calendar at the same time. All who opposed a special town meeting were correct. People who go south for the winter are being blocked from voting. Chances are this group would vote to support a new COA. Those left to vote in a special town meeting will probably have enough votes to meet the 2/3 needed to kill buying the Main St land. The Selectmen have now angered and alienated an whole new group of voters. Question is, "What will we do next?"
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 12:05:43
The part that frosts me is that they WANT to buy this property before we even get to vote on the COA in May at the regular Town Meeting. It was pointed out to them last night they are putting the cart before the horse and being penny wise and pound foolish. Mr. Dykens was busy looking at his phone then decided to make the motion of holding this Special Town meeting on December 21. Four days before Christmas. Obviously someone is pulling their strings. I think it's time for us to come together as tax payers and say enough is enough. Vote the purchase down.They will be forced to start all over again when the land purchase is defeated. They will have no one to blame but themselves for their egregious behavior. To have a meeting in the dead of winter is just wrong.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 05:51:23
Not a lot of faith in a majority of Board of Selectmen. Voting for a special town meeting when many of the snowbirds are gone. All to ram the sale of an overpriced lot down our throats. Not to mention trying to buy it from you know who. I cannot support the most expensive option for rebuilding the COA, on a property we don't even own, that we shouldn't own, for an asking price way over what it is worth, in a location that is no more convenient than either current location or Chathamport. SOMEBODY will be miffed about the distance they have to travel to get to to the senior center bo matter its location. So what the hell is so great about this property that we have to hold a town meeting in the dead of winter to get it.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/18/2019 - 21:23:03
Thanks to Cory Metters and Dean Nicastro tonite for trying to prevent a special town meeting in January. They are going to put to vote the purchase of 1610 Main Street during the dead of winter when folks are away Talk about a slime ball move on the part of the others. Please remember this at the polls.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/18/2019 - 19:50:32
We caught the Airport Comm meeting on tv. We have more questions than before and are pretty sure others do too. John, you were right that the man from Brewster was not treated well at all. It almost looks like they need to scrap the whole deal and start over, this time listening to the public from the start, which they did not do.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/17/2019 - 08:08:19
Love the way this room has been revitalized - "lurking" these days because I don't have anything to add on local issues like senior center but enjoy following the lively discussions - I know some of the originals like Jane, Carl, Tim P, Donnie Nick would be proud of the way the Room has restored itself - I hope Anna is also lurking - very happy for you John you deserve this after all the effort you put into it
ben h
USA - Sat 11/16/2019 - 13:51:50
Well said Jim! I knew your parents well and I know your sister so I would like to meet you some day and shake hands.
Wayne <alongshore2002@yahoo.com>
West Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 21:25:54
Just thought everyone may like to know. We attended a funeral today off Cape. Next to the headstone of every veteran was a new crisp flag.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 21:08:48
You've got it John. If things get slow, I'll toss a few hand grenades in here to get things moving!!

On that note, I'd urge a shift in protocol: please don't say things in here to, or about, someone that you wouldn't say to their face. I'm kind of a jerk so I'd say a lot to someone standing in front of me, but most of the folks posting here are good people and very decent. We are all attracted to the town.

I get that there are a few folks that are attracted to the possibility of pillaging the town; but for the most part, people are decent. No one rolls out of bed in the morning thinking of how to screw their neighbor over.

Maybe tone the rhetoric down a bit and adopt a more conciliatory attitude? It's. small town....we all have to live and work together (especially when the Chinese paratroopers start landing....). :)

Jim.

JimP
USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 18:52:37
John - you've done a great job with this. Even though we disagree on some things, I do appreciate the job you do maintaining this site. Please don't hesitate to let any of us know if you need anything else.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 12:53:28
Wayne, JimP and others: While I greatly appreciate your offers of monetary support, what would help me and this site even more would be to tray and make sure that it gets new activity such that it doesn't go for more than a couple of days without any posts, ok? You don't have to make the greatest post or something that will be remembered for years but in Sept, the statistics showed the LOWEST activity for any of the last year, not only in posts but in visitors.

That was somewhat depressing to me but as Moderator, I didn't feel it was appropriate to be the one to write something new just to get usage. So instead of money, PLEASE contribute words, ok? It's no cost to you but helps even more. I know there's Facebook where some of our regulars also post as do I, but let's keep this ole pre-FB thing going as well!
Thanks much!

J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 09:39:35
John, as I see you are still here I would be happy to stop by with some cash to help defray expenses. As you know I have been here from the very begging. I helped set up the original one on the Telecam site. It is so great that you have kept it going.
Wayne <alongshore2002@yahoo.com>
West Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 20:02:50
John - concur on the monthly sponsorship bit. I know you are a class act and won't ask folks for cash. back-channel me your addy and I'll "adopt a month." easy-peasy.
JimP
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 19:40:53
Judy - Thanks for offer but I kind of gave up on the sponsor thing and don't mind paying when people actively USE it. It's those weeks without any posts or very few that make it a bit sad for me.
J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:36:09
John - do you need any money to keep up the website? Happy to send some
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:30:09
Judy - I HAD paid very close attention to the costs and that's why I said it the way I did. Because temporary relocation costs could easily exceed $500K-$600K and that needs to be factored in as well as the non-monetary costs of disruption to user activities.

As I've said before and others who are actively involved in using the building have said: 1610 is the BEST site of the ones offered, and is better than current for a variety of reasons.

No need to apologize about the discussion because it's made this site MORE used and popular and as the one paying for it, getting used makes me feel HAPPY! Even when I am getting a bit of negative comments...so keep on discussing whatever as long as we can keep it civil as we've done thus far 99% of the time.

Thanks for recognizing that us non-res taxpayers are funding a huge chunk of these expenses! I would even suspect that the average tax bill of non-res may be higher than the average of residents but don't have any proof of that yet.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:20:40
And now I am really leaving the conversation.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:16:55
One problem with Stony Hill is that with a two story building and just above ground parking, there are 25 spaces, compared with 54 on Main Street. My thinking is to move mechanicals and storage to a basement level. That should reduce the footprint. Also have some employee parking down there. The other problem is the opposition to relocation during construction.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:13:48
John - you do pay your share of taxes and I'm sorry I wasn't more sensitive to that. This is a hotly contested topic and folks do not seem happy with the choices we've been given. I'm particularly upset that they want to push a special town meeting in January to push this through. This is not fair to the folks that travel during the winter months. I also don't agree with purchasing more land. These are my feelings and I feel as a tax payer we are being absolutely taken advantage of with this project and the other ones like the fish pier and the West Chatham Roadway project. We wont even get into the mess with the airport and the property owners around it. The town is a mess. Let's clean it up and fix what we can before engaging in another multimillion project that has so much controversy surrounding it . Like Debbie - I'm done with this conversation and I do apologize to everyone that has put up with this discussion for the past several weeks.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 17:57:19
John - had you paid attention when the costs were discussed- without the underground parking garage - the current site will do. It's much less money. The point folks are trying to make here is that the Community Building can be utilized during the day for overflow programs and the current site can rebuilt without forking out 750K for an unsuitable property bordering conservation area in West Chatham. That location is a joke located between two rotaries with minimal parking.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 17:01:28
Chatham used to be a wonderful place to grow up in and to live in. Surely there must still be something positive about living there. Would like to hear about it!
JJ
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 16:50:27
John- We agree on that point.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 16:19:21
Debbie - Don't give up yet! Though we may disagree on some things, it's good to have your views on this topic. My point re taxpayers was that some seem to think because we don't vote here, our money doesn't count either BUT it certainly does given the over 60% of tax being paid by us so if there's something that we would benefit from, letting the minority of taxpayers say no to entire project isn't ideal either.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 15:27:09
John, This will probably be my last comment on the COA issue. Know that my reference to residents included non resident taxpayers. I'm just interested in Community Center use numbers for non taxpayers. Finally, I hope this doesn't get voted down due to lack of compromise. The existing building definitely needs to be replaced.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:47:57
Judy - Because while they may have a somewhat usable building now, it's been proven beyond reasonable doubt that reusing the current site isn't possible without extra expenses which may well offset the purchase price of 1610. They have compromised a fair amount already on some things but trying to hold their programs at scattered locations is something they understandably won't do.

And as I've said before, it's NOT just the residents money being spent - it's mostly NON-residents who are funding these projects so we shouldn't be ignored.
And I am going based on facts as presented by town officials/volunteers whom you have in effect accused of lying about various items since you apparently don't believe their documentation/statistics.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:31:15
All that plus on site parking must accommodate 54 vehicles. Amazing! And overflow parking is across busy Route 28. Do COA folks really think that's a good idea?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:26:06
Kenny - It certainly seems that way. They want their OWN space, their OWN design, and they WON'T share with the younger folks at the Community Center. It's time for everyone to put the brakes on ridiculous spending. It is out of hand. Why buy MORE property when they have a perfectly usable building they can rebuild?
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:13:12
So complicated and controversial it's hard to keep up. Are Chatham snowflakes - sorry, I meant seniors - getting triggered because they might lose their safe space? OMG!
Kenny
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 13:35:13
The lower level "youth space" has an after school program for middle school youths. Otherwise I believe it's empty. These youths are from both Harwich and Chatham. It would be interesting to know the breakdown. In the summer, the entire building is reserved for summer rec, yet this is supposed to be a "community building". Not fair. (Summer program participants don't have to be Chatham residents. A breakdown here would also be interesting.)
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:41:06
John - you are way off base with what you said about how you interpret my comments. I have told several folks (including Debbie just last week) and they'll readily agree - I do believe they need a new COA. I have no problem with that. What I disagree with and so many others do as well, is that we do NOT need another palace built. These folks have yet to prove to many of us why they need x amount of parking spaces when their lot is hardly ever filled. On the days it is filled - they can either alter their schedule or use the Community Building. I also have a huge problem with taxpayers forking out more money for 1610 Main Street when they can rebuild their current building. Yes, I have had my share of unsatisfactory experiences there. That is a management problem - not a systemic one. You can choose to interpret my comments however you'd like - but as a non-resident, you should stick to what you know and what the others here are saying. Like Debbie says, and I totally agree - there needs to be a compromise. Without that, there is no new building.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:37:31
Debbie, though I've not been down there, isn't the basement of the Comm Ctr devoted to youth? Then that should also be removed and made common space. As should the back of library since why should we have a dedicated youth area based on that approach? I've been told that some of the users of the COA don't want to deal with any other age groups and I think they've earned that right.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:21:26
John, IMHO, compromise is needed. And there doesn't appear to be much interest in compromise. There should be no "dedicated space".
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:32:33
And how is it that seniors manage to get to and from the Community Center for pickleball, Mens' Group, Senior fitness class, weight room, voting, etc.?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:25:28
My point was that, to me, the COA is just as important as any other age group and needs equal access to facilities which includes same times/days of week year round and not based on when school or other users may interfere. And based on what I know, that's not currently possible with the Comm Ctr. Plus, they presently have dedicated space so why should they have to give up to other users? I think we all get that Judy has apparently not only a dislike for the COA but wants revenge of some type, like closing it down if possible, which is how I read/hear the comments.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:21:20
Most other towns with a Senior Center do not have the luxury of a Community Center. There has to be space available there when school is in session. I have a problem with building more COA space than is needed just because some seniors might have an issue with "access" to the Community Center.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 10:38:05
John - how in the world can you make such a ridiculous statement. They can schedule those classes when the building is empty - as we are trying to point out.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 10:21:43
A wait list like that is NOT related to scheduling so any theory making that assumption is flawed. It's due to lack of space in the current facility. And the Comm Ctr probably doesn't have that type space available at the frequency needed and users likely don't want to deal with access to that building. That's my understanding of it.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 09:52:46
That's being done Debbie- along with the drivebys . You're absolutely correct about moving those classes to the Community Center. I think it's time for them to go back to the drawing board and rethink this.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 09:34:22
Rather than a random COA drive by, I suggest checking the monthly calendar, published in the Chronicle (see 10/31 edition). I'm guessing peak time is lunch. Not much in the afternoon. If fitness offerings are the ones with waiting lists, I don't understand why they can't be held at the Community Center. There's a Senior Lite Fitness offering currently listed on the Community Center calendar.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 08:44:47
Interesting column in Chronicle today from one of folks involved in advocating for a bigger space for the COA. Several friends and I have been driving by the current location on a daily basis. The varying times we've taken note of the 4-7 cars in parking just don't make sense for her argument that there are waiting lists for their programs . To me it seems like a poor job of scheduling those programs/classes that have "so-called" waiting lists. I'm not the only one that has mentioned this. Not going to be swayed by those numbers at all. Drive by as we do - different times/different days.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/13/2019 - 18:14:54
Wayne, thank you. My point is to the folks who always ask: "who?"

It is up to you....YOU are the one's to remember the fallen, the sacrifices, the cost of the wars. When we off-site not only the wars, but taking care of our warriors and their remembrances, we've cast off from our moorings and lost our way.

Waving a flag is easy, picking up a rifle and manning the wall isn't. Trite phrases are easy, caring for and helping our wounded for the rest of their lives is hard.

JimP
USA - Tue 11/12/2019 - 18:39:07
To all of those who served including both our late Fathers, we thank you and are grateful for your service!!
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/12/2019 - 14:12:24
Oh,and JimP I am from West Chatham and I served. In combat with distinction.
Wayne <alongshore2002@yahoo.com>
West Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:55:07
Judy, The flags are put in the cemeteries by the VFW every year just before Memorial Day. My Grandfather got one as did the Vets. around him. We have had a lot of storms this summer and the flags are not of high quality and they get destroyed and blow on the ground. The lawn mowers pick them up and dispose of them. I have picked up a number my self. I think it is disgraceful to have these flags lying on the ground in tatters so I pick them up and dispose of them. If I can tell where they came from and they are in decent shape I will put them back. Otherwise they go to the VFW to properly be dealt with. If you want to see the flags I suggest going on Memorial Day. I would be happy to meet you there and we could do a tour.
Wayne <alongshore2002@yahoo.com>
West Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:48:43
meh - less than 1/2 of 1% today have served or serve. .047%. Fact.

We are involved in interminable wars since politicians figured out how to turn the bodies of our troops into votes. It went into high-gear with Madelain Albright and the Clintons. We have turned into a barbaric Nation. The people don't care anymore. So long as they can drive their cars, go to the mall, see what the Kardashians are doing at any given moment and drink their 60 ounce cokes and a dozen donuts every morning for breakfast...they don't give a dam.
The swells from Wellesley want to scream about some folks sky-diving and interfering with their cocktail hour but they could give two-hoots about the grunts getting maimed, blown-up, and killed. Their kids don't serve. No one they know serves.
Don't want to sound bitter, but served 36 years myself, all over the world, lost too many friends, and have seen way too many "horror-shows" for normal people to process. Too many kids crippled and horribly maimed.
It's not about flags, parades, or barbecues. It's about reflection and NOT wasting the precious resource of our youth in non-existential wars. Enough already...stop the madness.

JimP
USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:13:45
Yes, my Grandfather Richard E. has a marker denoting his service in the U.S. Life-Saving Service, as does Carl Olson's grandfather in a different cemetery. I think Jane Hamilton's GF's grave is similarly adorned.

I don't hold anyone accountable for not decorating veterans graves with flags.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 17:30:40
Richard - every year they are placed. There's holders that identify the vets and they stay in the ground year round and the flags are placed in them. I just mailed a contact of mine that runs the functions at the VFW. I will also call the cemetery commission tomorrow. This has been done forever and it's not acceptable this wasn't done. I have plenty of folks that have said they'd volunteer next year. If we had only known this year it would not have happened. It's a slap in the face to living vets and the families of those that are no longer with us.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 17:03:05
Judy: I think the flags are only placed for Memorial Day. Sometimes by now the ground would be frozen !

It occurred to me today, Veterans Day, that in the Chatham High School Class of 1957, 100% of the males went on to honorably serve in one branch of the military or another. It was sign up or be drafted. Things are certainly different now.

Verne Hunt, Coast Guard; John Pratt, Navy; Robert Borthwick, Air Force; John Chanberlin, Air Force; Carl Olson, Navy; Eddie Johnson, Army; Ross Gould, Army National Guard, myself, Navy x 20 years.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 16:51:48
I also am not in favor of a new COA.I too have gone buy many times of the year on different days and hours and very few vehicles are there.Maybe someone could go in and look at the space being used and might be able to plan it out differently.
Jan
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 15:38:15
I went to pay my respects to my Dad today at the cemetery since he was a veteran. There were no flags placed on ANY of the veteran's graves. Does anyone know who's responsible for placing these flags?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 14:32:26
I feel until we have a Board of Selectmen that will hold these folks accountable nothing is going to change.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 10:45:34
Talked to a few more people over the weekend. Not one favors the new COA as planned. They MAY settle for a smaller building but even that may be a hard sell. We were surprised at how they reacted. They are so upset with how the town is being managed they have NO trust in the administrators.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 08:13:00
Nancy just told me about it tonite at dinner. Just disgraceful it's not done yet. It's looking like maybe the summer? Who knows? No new date has been set.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 20:43:55
Come January, it will have been a year that I, representing the Ryder family, went before the Board of Selectmen to get permission to place a bronze plaque honoring David Ryder on the (then) soon to be recreated Fish Pier Observation Deck. Permission granted, with a few caveats. No problem there. No Town of Chatham expense.
That plaque has been cast. I certainly hope that all of Dave's family members live long enough to see the completion of the Deck, and the plaque mounted.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 16:48:58
For anyone that listens to them - all they do is whine. They certainly don't do much to present themselves in a positive light. I think I mentioned before the horrible, rude treatment I received from the director there when I needed help with family members. It was so awful I wrote a letter to Town manager and it was turned over to the former HR director for town. I'll never forget that. One of my good friends had the same experience with her father-in-law. People don't forget these things - especially with incompetent, rude people the town employs.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 10:29:51
When this whole thing started, a member of the Finance Comm said he had figures that say the elderly population was actually going to decrease, which brought howls from the COA staff. At least one other member of the Fin Comm does not seem to be in support of the current plan and wants a much smaller building too. As far as the Fish Pier, its about time somebody from the Town stood up in public and admits, "We blew it!!"
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 10:26:16
I hope they don't even get the requisite number of signatures to call a special town meeting. I also agree with Barbara. The current building has an elevator. They've been complaining for years about having three different floors there but all of their arguments are negated by the fact that an elevator provides them transportation.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 08:34:14
One thing for sure - there are a lot of people extremely unhappy with the size of the proposed building as well as the location. It's too bad the BOS did such a poor job on this. It's also disturbing to me they continue to use the same project management oversight team. I'd like to know what they've been paid so far . It makes me furious they are going to try for a special town meeting in January when so many folks are away.
How much more " progress" can actually be made in 4 months? I'm pretty confident in feeling this is not going to pass. It's too bad all the folks for this project were so adamant about what they wanted vs what is needed. I'm also amazed at how incredibly rude they were to me when I spoke against the proposed size. This reminds me of little children whining to get their way. It's time to put the brakes on this and time for the Selectmen to do the job they were elected to do - figure out a new location and decrease the size and just maybe it might pass.

Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 06:59:19
The kitchen is 450 sf out of a total 11,155 sf. Making it smaller won't make much of a difference, especially if more square footage is needed for the third floor (elevator space, etc.). I'd think the only way to have a significantly smaller building would be to take out one of the two program rooms. If that space is absolutely needed, then the only other option for a smaller building is to have it on the Community Center site. It would be interesting to know the pros and cons of a 3 story 11,000 sf building on the existing site.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 13:42:01
Debbie - I'd be on board with that - totally. Barbara, not a clue about the elevator. It would most likely have to replaced.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 12:45:08
Is there no longer an elevator in the COA? If it's still there, why is the second floor not accessible?
Barbara Stevenson <Bejsteve@gmail.mail>
San Diego , CA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 11:47:11
So a 3 level building with a smaller kitchen and less parking on the existing site would be acceptable?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 11:30:46
Debbie - they can get by with the parking there as we all have seen. They could use their "not accepted" below ground parking level and make a few rooms there. No need for a commercial kitchen. I'd like one of those as well for my house; but it's not necessary.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:33:39
What size building would be acceptable?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:27:44
A final thought. A major problem is the upstairs of the current COA. Many people cannot access it. If that square footage was on the same level as the first floor, they may find they can get by pretty well.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:24:48
Judy, we need to get that point out there. We think a lot of people do want a smaller building and can support it. They will not vote for a building of this size. We seem willing to compromise but they want the larger version and will not settle for a smaller one.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:05:52
Alice - there is no doubt they need a new building. I totally support a smaller building and I'd vote for it. I will not vote for 1610 or any other place until the current building plans are reduced in size. Many of my friends feel the same way. As you said earlier - our generation will see very few users for a COA - no matter what type of spin Ms. Speakman tries to put on it. This seems to be a fact they are not able to accept. Granted, some will - but the majority will not.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 09:45:40
John, Another thing to think about. There are some, like us, who would and could support a smaller building. Overall, are not against a new COA, but believe a smaller building will do.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 09:13:18
Debbie has a great idea. I think we should take pictures every day. I totally agree with what you said. Absolutely no need for 1610 Main. For them to even consider having a special town meeting in January reeks of the "special" treatment certain folks get in this Town. It is time for everyone to speak out and put an end to this ridiculous spending. This needs to go to Town Meeting in May. That way we'll have more than enough time to document the minimal usage.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 08:57:05
John, We are not users of the COA either. We did take part in the survey a few years and voiced our opinions that we would not use COA. Did you? We see this as a temporary spike in use if we are to believe the numbers given us. Look at the VFW. Their membership is dyeing off every day. People are living their lives differently. We are more plugged into other things. We have many more options in our lives and so will not be using the COA. That's why we believe a larger building will not be used just a few years down the road.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 08:46:08
Stakeholders are driving this project. There should be an independent citizen committee that analyzes/confirms issues like the actual use of COA and Community Center building and grounds. (CC use should document only Chatham residents.)
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 07:26:59
In response to your question as to whether or not I believe those numbers - the answer is a solid "NO" - I don't. Drive by - the proof is there .
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 06:19:10
John - take a drive by the building every day for a while as I do. There are rarely over 5-7 cars there. There are times when the lot is full; however those times are few and far between. Certainly not enough to justify what they are looking for in terms of space in a new building. For those times they need extra space they can plan ahead and use the Community Center. One of the Selectmen said he goes on Thursday's and there's always a lot of folks there. That wasn't the case yesterday when I drove by.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 06:16:19
I saw at least two posts saying that they wanted a "much smaller" COA building.
So...if one of the key reasons that the existing building needs to be replaced is because it's TOO SMALL to accommodate even the current needs, let alone potential increased usage, exactly HOW would a new building that's similar to or smaller than now meet that space need? Staff and users of COA have presented statistics showing the usage/demand. Do you not believe them? I'm NOT a user of COA so I'm more able to look at it objectively, I feel.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 22:54:11
Obviously, I left out a word but hopefully your brain filled in the missing part. Richard G.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:41:08
Prior to his appointment as Keeper of the newly constructed Old Harbor Life-Saving Station in 1897-98, Keeper Doane was the Keeper of the Chatham Life-Saving Station, which then was located very near Morris Island. Keeper Doane retired in 1915 when the USLSS became the USCG in January. Richard E. Ryder, then Surfman #1 at Old Harbor was then made Officer in Charge, USCG , of the Monomoy Station, not Monomoy Point.

If this is not relevant to Chatham history, I don't know could be more so.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:38:14
Yes. That is what I was referring to.
BobR <zut444@verizon.net>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:25:08
Is that a house that Keeper Hezekiah Doane of the U.S. Life-Saving Service once lived in?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 16:46:03
Seaview St. was built in 1895. Zoned R20. Any proposed demo would therefore go to the Historical Commission, not HBDC, but I can't imagine it would be demolished. Extra lot will no doubt have new construction, maybe looking like the ones Eastward just built on Queen Anne and Shore Roads.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 15:24:14
Hopefully the home on Seaview street will be saved by dint of its historic pedigree. Not sure but strongly think there's enough to save it. Maybe someone from HBDC will take an interest.
BobR <zut444@verizon.net>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 12:13:29
I have a problem with 1610 Main Street. It's time they started listening to the folks that are paying for these projects. There is no reason we should purchase land. NONE. Alice - they won't listen. My preference at this point is to vote it down, and let them come back with a much smaller, modified plan at the current location. This is exactly what happens when greed is involved and no management.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 09:59:29
It seems there are enough angry people to defeat the COA building. What then? Do we tell them to suck it up and stay where they are? Or do we demand a much smaller building ?[our preference} Having options and talking about them at Town Meeting would help to defeat it.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 09:05:02
I agree with others who say we do not need a new COA center.
Jan
chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 07:49:58
Hold your bets. He wants to subdivide the property. You know what comes next.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 22:16:23
To add to the fray of what a mess this Town is, Eastward has purchased Sue Plumb's house on Seaview St. (Dr. Montbach's old house) Should we start placing our bets on what tasteless, goddam eyesore Dollar Bill might replace it with?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 21:50:47
I wrote a letter to the BOS this morning re the current hic-ups in the projects at hand and the unsatisfactory responses from the Town regarding the way these projects have been handled. I wrote that I am disgusted they have allowed these projects to continue with the minimal oversight from employees. Taxpayers are paying exorbitant salaries for less than satisfactory job performances from the Town employees. In the real world these folks would be fired. I have asked them to do the job they were elected to do and provide feedback on the unsatisfactory performance of the Town Manager along with her managers. Some of you may not agree with me but that is certainly your prerogative. I for one, have absolutely had it with cover-ups and excuses from the Town Manager and Mr. Duncanson, along with the current BOS not doing anything to remedy these situations.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 12:36:06
Bruce - I am in agreement with you on this, and am confident that any future contracts will be significantly tighter and incorporate some/much of what you've suggested. And as I said and BOS did also, this project should have had an OPM on it from beginning in hindsight. Yes, it's an extra expense but can help avoid problems by being able to do certain things that the town may not be able to do directly and/or legally and provide better technical oversight than town resources.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 12:16:11
Understood, John. But price point is just one component of a contract. It seems to me that meeting deadlines with quality work is just as important. Contingencies covering this should be part of the bidding process.
Bruce
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:41:35
Bruce - That's why I said lowest qualified bid because a lowball bid that is way out of range of the next 2-3 can be suspicious. Which is one of the reasons why the actual lowest bid for trap dock was rejected, along with some technical issues with paperwork, etc. that it had. The second thru forth lowest bids were grouped close enough such that Pomroy and town felt comfortable with that price point.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:34:47
Whether it's municipal or private/commercial, someone is still being contracted and paid to do a specific job by a specific time for an agreed to price. Being paid in phases for work satisfactorily completed by specific deadlines -- performance bonding, in other words -- should always be part of the bidding process. Always. The argument could be made that this is even more important on a municipal project because it is funded by taxpayers. It is understandable that certain rules exist to prevent corruption or sweetheart deals. But a municipality (or anyone, for that matter) should never be bound to accept the lowest bid. Otherwise, the lowball bid would win every time. We are really talking about fairness here. Municipal jobs should include performance bonding because that is the fair thing to do. If the laws don't accommodate that, then the laws should be changed. To Judy's point, we all have a voice at the voting booth. If we feel our leaders are not listening to us, then it is our responsibility to vote for someone else.
Bruce
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:25:59
Believe John is right. You need to have reasons you can defend in court to refuse lower bids. We wish Our got the bid but the laws around this was an attempt to stop local corruption, sweetheart deals for various reasons.
When we told a friend about rebuilding the Trap Dock, she said 'Another part of the Chatham I love will be gone forever"

Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:05:44
Remember that municipal projects have different rules than private/commercial and that includes possible legal action against town by the lowest qualified bidder and/or state if that bid isn't accepted as I understand it. And they don't have the option to specify where bidders are located, i also believe. A company can take a higher bid if they wish but municipalities can't.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 09:46:53
Alice - I believe someone did ask and was told they had to refer it to Town Counsel - and surprise - Town Counsel didn't get back to them. If anyone has heard - please let us know. Last count I was aware of, Jill had terminated over 84 employees and that was well over one year ago. Something is rotten here. The mere fact they didn't use Our for a mere $145K more to ensure a LOCAL firm for the new Trap Dock is disturbing as well. The town needs a management overhaul. I would also suggest writing letters to the BOA to discourage a "Special Town Meeting" in January when no one is here to vote on the new COA.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 08:51:25
We asked this question before. Is there a performance bond in effect? That is supposed to be our insurance in case the contractor does not finish work or had to be fired and another contractor brought in. Do not want to violate Johns' rules, but it is pretty well known that if you cross Jill; she can be vindictive. We have been told this by both present and past Town employees. We also had a very bad experience with her.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 08:24:40
John, I appreciate your point about using a "standard" contract since there have been no issues in the past. To answer your question "if they've never had this occur, how would you expect them to plan for it?", I would say by having certain contingencies in the contract that provide for phased payments only after specific deadlines have been met. Just as there are incentives offered for successfully completing a job ahead of schedule, it only seems fair that payments should be withheld when deadlines are not achieved, with the understanding, of course, that change orders may affect established schedules. The point is, all of this can be easily handled in a contract that provides for things like human error, etc. That's why we all buy insurance for ourselves and our homes and cars -- because we can't be sure of what is going to happen. Perhaps we can take a lesson from the mantra of those who sell mutual funds: "Past performance is no indication of future results." Just my 2 cents.
Bruce
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 07:26:10
Bruce - There doesn't seem to be any accountability for anyone dealing with Town projects. The debacle in West Chatham could have been prevented had Temple had done his due diligence and physically examined the pipes. Had the paperwork been signed when it was supposed to on the fish pier maybe we would have had a different outcome. There was no excuse for delay after delay once the project started. Why weren't they fired? Why did Duncanson cover for them time after time? In the real world these people would be without jobs and Ms Goldsmith would have a warning on her record instead of collecting an exorbitant salary for poor performance. As far as the proposed COA being located at 1610 Main Street - using the same project overseer, pretty sure folks have absolutely had enough of this and that it won't pass. The Selectman don't appear to be listening to the people that elected them. We can fight back by not approving any more projects.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 06:04:13
Bruce - Given that contract was done prior to job beginning, when there was no indication that this extended delay would occur, and the basic contract apparently used was standard one that had been used previously multiple times with no issues, and this was first time this type situation has happened, it seems logical to see how this happen. Obviously it's a learning experience for all just like when a person makes a bad deal unknowingly but I don't think the entire thing can be the fault of the town when it's the contractor that caused the problem. In hindsight the town could/should have done some things differently but if they've never had this occur, how would you expect them to plan for it?
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 21:08:11
From Tim Wood in the 10/24 Chronicle on the Fish Pier project: "Although months behind schedule, the project remains within the budget, said Town Manager Jill Goldsmith. Although the original contract with Sciaba Construction was for $1.4 million, change orders approved requested by the town, involving the fuel system, raised the final cost to $1.6 million. To date the town has paid the contractor $1.2 million; 5 percent, or $67,522, will be held back pending approval of final construction." Sorry, but it is hard to understand why the Town of Chatham would agree to a contract that required such considerable payments in the face of numerous missed deadlines. Where does accountability figure into this? Am I missing something?
Bruce
E Harwich, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 19:43:32
Way to go Chat-M-Room contributors! Haven't seen such a lively discussion for some time.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 17:20:19
Alice- The original bid was $1.478 Million. With change orders the new contractor cost is $1.611 Million. We've paid Roth Engineering, so fa,r for design and oversight since 4/2017 $382,000. Add to that Town Counsel costs, police details and Pomroy. We're at about $2million . Assuming no further change orders, the last 3 costs will continue to rise until complete.
Elaine <ebgodard@gmail.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 14:10:34
So, WHO designed the Fish Pier Observation deck and at WHAT cost?
Emily Cunningham <Dayonown@yahoo.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 12:39:59
Debbie- All I can say to your comments is that if it is voted down, they are going to have to take another hard look at existing properties. 1610 absolutely should not be approved.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 12:25:42
John- Several years ago I went to the Orleans COA and I interviewed the Director. This was when an Adult Day Care addition was being considered for our COA.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:39:40
Kathy, remember that:
1) The fish pier deck was not designed by the construction company.
2) It was designed primarily to be functional for the loads, location and environment that it's in, not just to look nice.

Debbie: But does Orleans offer totally comparable services/programs in theirs (other than the day care) for a similar number of users? If not, it's not a valid comparison. And was that building built to be more functional than ours which may have been constrained by making it look less commercial/municipal? I've never seen theirs.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:31:45
Regarding a new larger COA building, the existing building is 8,016 sf. Orleans, with the exact same demographic, has a COA that's 8,745 sf AND it includes Adult Day Care. Amazing!
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:18:24
'Free Cash' is not free is right, John. It all comes out of the taxpayer's pockets regardless of where it ends up. The fish pier observation deck is a joke and not attractive at all for such a prominent place in town. As a former resident, I certainly would like to hear and or read that the folks in Chatham got out to vote and will take their town back. Are there even enough Chathamites left to do that?
Kathy <pies2@bellsouth.net>
Sebastian, FL USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:09:57
For the BOS to schedule a "Special Election" in the middle of the winter when people are away, is a HUGE disgrace to the voting public. One of my friends told me this morning this town reeks of cronyism and bad deals. Nothing could be closer to the truth. Cynthia - in total agreement with you. I hope folks wise up and write letters and vote against this. As far as the fish pier is concerned, all I can say is the BOS parted ways with the Harwich Town Adminstrator - maybe time for Chatham to do the same - along with Dr. Bob. Pay out the contracts and lets move on. No need for a management team that trips over themselves at every single step they take.
Judy P. <judylpat@rcn.com>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:03:04
Alice, in MA municipal accounting, there actually is a account called 'Free Cash'. You'll see/hear numerous references to it when budgets are discussed. It doesn't mean that it's free as in no cost, but that it's free from being specifically linked to another account/item. I'm not 100% sure but I think it's whatever money is left unspent by other accts at end of year and is returned back to this general pool acct.
I don't believe this project will require a Prop 2 1/2 override.
The COA has the data to prove that existing building is not adequate for current or projected future use so having a new somewhat larger building seems reasonable even though I'm not a user of it at this time.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 09:40:23
First things first. We were under the impression the Main St location was under the expanded landing path. We saw we were wrong about this. We did laugh when Jill said we could buy the land with "FREE CASH" No such thing. We will go to Town Meeting, sit quietly and just vote "NO". Does this require a prop 2 1/2 override? If it does, another chance to kill it.
Do people really move here because it has a COA? we think not.
Remember what Mark Twain said" There are liars, damned liars, and then there are politicians" We are seeing pretty good examples of that here!

Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 08:32:03
No more voting on big projects at a town meeting. Discuss them yes. Vote no. Vote on big money items at the ballot box.
Cynthia Moore <cynthiamoore120@yahoo.com>
South Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 08:00:19
There should not be a special town meeting for this DOA project. It really is time to stop the nonsense. I wonder if we push through a special town meeting if we can vote to stop the W Chatham roadway project? This town is a joke. Time for heads to roll. There are no excuses for incompetence- NONE.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 06:05:21
Oops....of course I meant the CONTRACTOR of the debacle at the Fish Pier is suing the Town, not the Fish Pier! Sorry!
Emily Cunningham <Dayonown@yahoo.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 06:01:19
OMG there is absolutely NO excuse for the horrible MESS this Town is in! Heads should roll! How can our highly paid professionals, elected officials, FinCom members and the rest of the voters sit back and watch mistake after mistake? The Fish Pier suing the Town? Choosing 1610 for the COA (should be DOA) saying the seniors could bicycle to their activities?, the trap dock will be next......yikes, I am glad to be leaving for CA tomorrow......but I will be back to vote at Town Meeting in May, and they better not DARE to have a special Town Meeting before! Disgusting!
Emily Cunningham <Dayonown@yahoo.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 05:45:33
To each his own John. You can defend them all you want. What do you think about the front page of today's paper where the contractor at the Fish Pier is suing the Town? Wouldn't be poor management would it??
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 05:35:01
Points to consider:
1) Wasn't just incorrect forms, as there were three other significant issues and the bid was too much difference from next three which is a bad indication.
2) RB Our bid was approximately $145K more than winning bid. Too much of a premium to pay for local company.
3) Pomroy is NOT an engineer but an OPM. And he was brought in later on fish pier project to try and get it handled properly. Maybe if he'd been involved from beginning, another company would have gotten the construction job as I believe his firm can do some reference checking that town employees can't legally do.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 23:05:00
Let's call the Community Center what it really is: The Chatham Recreation Center. Why do senior recreation offerings have to take place in a COA facility? I don't get this. Seniors could be bussed to the Community Center for their yoga and exercise classes if they can't manage to get there on their own. I'd think that might allow for a smaller COA building if located somewhere other than the Community Center. Oh well, guess it's too late.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 22:18:19
The BOS voted to recommend 1610 Main Street for our new COA. Not going to support it - no way. I hope others feel the same.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 21:24:59
Lowest bid was thrown out due to incorrect forms filled out by bidder. . Won't award it to local firm of R. B. Our. Time frame is to start in December and finish in May. Using the same Engineer as fish pier - Pomeroy. Need I say more?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 19:26:45
Listening to Duncanson at BOS meeting talking about the trap dock wishlist for the next major screw up. Just unbelievable.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 19:08:57
Actually, it was called Surfmens Mutual Benefit Association. One of the founders was from Provincetown. Hard to believe, but Surfmen of color were excluded. Very sad.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:43:37
I worked for Castell Kelly (son of Joe Kelley of the USLSS) and his wife Ruby (Bloomer) also a descendant of members of the USLSS, at Ruby's Dry Cleaning Shop in West Chatham. There were no union dues there .

Do you think members of the USLSS paid union dues? No, they paid in to a group called the Surfmen's Mutual Benevolent Association, ( SMBA, ) but their dues were voluntary!!!!!

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:38:51
When I worked at the A&P store around 1954-55 or so (now Ben Franklin) one of my first paychecks showed a deduction for "Union Dues". I asked the manager, what is this for? He said, the A&P is a Union shop, and everyone is required to be a member. Since I was the son of a fisherman, I had not heard of such a thing. You fish, you earn some share of the catch. Nobody takes anything from you, whether you catch anything or not.

Unions were anathema to me, even in the Navy. Since I had a bunch of civilian employees at two of my duty stations, I had to deal with their Unions. AFGE, etc.

Yes, I know that unions were essential for helping employees, especially women back when, get better pay and working conditions.
The contrast between the Fish Pier observation deck reconstruction job (union members maybe?), and the fishermen who make a separate economy run, without being union dues paying, is quite apparent.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:11:25
Let's talk about Unions.
BobR <zut444@verizon.net>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 23:11:17
Alice, the Town had it good when Hinchey was Town Manager. Everything went to hell after he did not get his contract renewed by the BOS.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 19:11:20
How many more millions are these new projects going to add up to? Is the Town trying to out do all the McMansions built around town? How can we vote for ANY of them at this point? Agree or disagree, it doesn't seem we had these troubles when Bill Henchey was in command.
Alice <capecodalice@yahoo.com>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 18:46:43
Time for the craziness to stop. No more until we fix what we have. I cannot be the only one that feels this way!
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 11:04:39
Next in line is the trap dock reconstruction (see tomorrow's BOS agenda). Then comes the upwelling building that's to be constructed on pilings next to the Mitchell River Bridge, followed by a redo of the Harbormaster's office. COA folks will say that they've waited patiently for their turn (after DPW, Community Center, police and fire stations, Community Development building, high school, tech school) and construction costs will only go up.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 10:16:08
What an absolute shame this beautiful little town I grew up in has been ruined by people that think they know what's best for all. I think the rotary project should just be stopped. No other projects should even be considered until the Fish Pier is completely done. Town Management has shown they are not capable of managing projects at all. Just a shame the Town is in shambles.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 07:31:26
Seems to me that Elaine and I are the only people who care enough( besides the fishermen) who have actually been on cite observing. If you are SO sure that railing is temporary, then Pomroy should make a public statement to that effect. Completion date? Doesn't look good for next summer.
Emily Cunningham <Dayonown@yahoo.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 12:46:14
The "no way" wire (similar to lobster trap grating)- that Emily saw is permanent. Pomroy would tell you that if you asked him..
Elaine
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 12:01:31
The idea that I spent hours on this is just laughable and ridiculous as I probably spent no more than 20 minutes to locate the quotes, time stamps, web references,etc. but it was done intermittently over a few hours. And given that Emily said she saw wire there recently, I would still believe that's the temporary/OSHA one. Based on his background and my prior experience with him, I am going to believe Rick Pomroy on this. The posts might be intended as permanent but in no way would that wire be.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 10:18:50
Apparently this isn't on the agenda for Monday. Plenty of time to get this fixed ?? Doubtful.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 09:24:41
Elaine - it'll be interesting Monday listening to Duncanson trying to worm his way into an explanation that he's hoping folks will believe. . So many levels of incompetence it's unbelievable. His smarmy attitude while trying to explain is condescending. We'll listen to him and the BOS pontificating ad nauseum and nothing will change. I can't believe more folks don't speak out and demand the BOS put an end to this nonsense and demand resignations from the Town Manager and Duncanson . No action on so many projects . The taxpayers deserve more than these highly paid examples of incompetence.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 08:41:46
I swore I wasn't going to do this but those reading this page deserve to know the facts. I don't need a recap, John. I was there. You have just spent hours attempting to defend this project management-again. You and they were wrong. The railings they told the BOS and the public were temporary for worker safety were NOT and that's a serious problem when they don't know. It was the frame for the PERMANENT railing. Their assertions to the contrary don't inspire confidence. I know this for a fact because I have a series of photos from the TeleCam where workers began installing the PERMANENT railing on 9-23 right up until the meeting you referenced where staff said they were temporary. I have sent the BOS and staff the photos and expect them to acknowledge that fact at the next meeting. Facts matter when safety is involved.I won't hold my breath for an apology from you.
Elaine
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 07:37:27
John - if what you said is true about OSHA and the flimsy railing - then it's not protecting the workers; ergo, still not safe.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 07:36:16
Elaine - Addendum: Watch the video of that meeting at approx 03:46:20 for about 20 seconds where Dr Bob says portions of railing are temporary. Then also at approx 04:25:00 for about 1 minute where Rick Pomroy answers Jeff Dykens re the temporary railing. Ok, so the term OSHA may not have been spoken, but it's due to their rules/regs that the temporary ones are required.

Found this on web also:
"OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1926.750(b)(1)(iii). The standard reads as follows:
Floor periphery - safety railing. A safety railing of 1/2-inch wire rope or equal shall be installed, approximately 42 inches high, around the periphery of all temporary - planked or temporary metal-decked floors of tier buildings and other multifloored structures during structural steel assembly."

Now doesn't that sound almost exactly what Emily described as the "flimsy little, wire, 3ft high"? Certainly does to me...

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 00:40:40
Elaine - If you were paying attention at the Oct 21 BOS meeting as I was, you would have heard that there is a TEMPORARY railing as required by OSHA for workplace fall protection while the project is UNDER CONSTRUCTION, ok? Maybe you need to better understand what occurs on certain construction sites/workplaces before making uninformed statements.

My facts on that are accurate, though I may not have said it using the exact same verbiage. For reference, see the final two sentences of the DRAFT Minutes for that meeting which say: "Mr. Pomroy said the railing system is not complete. He said he will request a section be fully installed so the final product can be seen by interested members of the public"

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 22:53:16
P.S John. What the heck does OSHA have to do with this? "Sounds like"? This isn't a 'workplace".It's a public observation deck with 3000 people a day in the summer. And unless there is public pushback, it is NOT temporary- it's permanent. Get your facts straight. Words have consequences.
Elaine
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 20:11:50
Emily, you are absolutely right. John- You need to stop defending the indefensible. Don't speculate or assume . Those railings are low and unsafe. Lives are at risk.
Elaine
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:51:43
Amy - I feel the exact same way. Thank you.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:38:14
My guess is, if there is no reconsideration of other sites or reconsideration of the project as a whole (senior center vs. inter generational center), the town meeting will not support the project and we'll be back here in another year still discussing what to do. Maybe that's a good thing. I'd rather see nothing done at this point than an overbuilt building.
Amy
USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:20:06
Emily, that wire railing sounds like the OSHA required construction safety one, and not the permanent one, which was to be only installed on a small portion initially as a way if verifying it's going to be correct.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 18:22:43
Everyone should take a good look at the Fish Pier project. Not much activity, but today Dr.Bob was there with two guys waving his arms around and talking a lot. I could not hear what he was saying, but the flimsy little, wire, 3 ft high, visitor railing is worse than a joke.....might kill a tourist! Think of children up there.
Emily Cunningham <Dayonown@yahoo.com>
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 15:47:20
OK, thanks. Check the packet. I predict no reconsideration.
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 14:21:27
Debbie - I'm not comfortable doing that. Guess we'll see what happens Monday.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 13:23:23
Judy- It appears there's not much interest in this subject. Before we leave it, might you be willing to post the points mentioned in your Selectman's well thought out response?
Debbie
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 10:53:54
Better than a dull line

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