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Just a colorful divider

Might it be that Fred lives in the neighborhood?
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 02/19/2020 - 08:48:14
I find it ironic in today's Chronicle that the majority of folks against the Stepping Stones location seem to feel the traffic is horrendous. Why don't they drive the horrific West Chatham corridor on a daily basis. This nay-saying, NIMBY attitude is getting old. I truly believe that if Stepping Stones is not selected for a location, the COA will be left with nothing. That will be the end of the discussion.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 02/19/2020 - 07:55:53
I agree with you completely Elaine. But I don't think BOS wants it there and I think they'll do whatever they can to keep the project at 1610. Unfortunately I think it's ego getting in the way. If they follow the advice of the school committee then they don't look like they are the bad guys.
It was interesting to me that Scott Carpenter (superintendent of monomoy) thought it was a fantastic idea.

USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 11:41:41
Amy- There is precedent. Harwich declared their Middle School surplus and it's now their Cultural Center. The optimum acreage for rural middle schools the size of Chatham is 24 acres. We are only asking for no more than 2 acres out of 32. There are significant benefits for the School. Since the COA , as a Municipal building, is only open 8-4 and closed on weekends, parking can be used for after school and weekend school events and athletics. Located south of the bike path it will not interfere in anyway with athletic fields. A feasibility study would address traffic and safety, landscaped buffers, and provide an additional site for students and teachers to gather in the event of an emergency. It is a huge opportunity for the school to benefit from a Chatham financed project-rather than the School District.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 10:45:52
Personally I think it has to do with them being wrong and not being able to admit they made a mistake. When a citizen shows up to Town Meeting with a much better plausible idea, I'm sure it's humiliating. They are looking like fools. Mr. Nicastro did no one any favors by the comments he made that were pointed out in last week's Chronicle. They should graciously say they made an error and move on. One would have to be an absolute fool not to see the Stepping Stones property is a better deal.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 09:52:54
It's a mystery to me why BOS isn't on board to consider the Stepping Stones site knowing there's a potential for substantial savings on the COA project cost. Why not find this out?
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 09:38:21
Considering the way the community banded together to support regionalization, for the school committee to reject the idea of giving up a sliver of never to be used land, would be a slap in the face. Is it believable to imagine some members being influenced by the BOS?
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 07:18:23
Yes, but if BOS doesn't want to consider the Stepping Stones site, there is no impetus for them to push the school committee. A cynical person might think this is just what BOS wanted.
USA - Tue 02/18/2020 - 05:09:34
Rediculus. Even though it is in the school district, it is still taxpayers funded. The town should take it for what it is needed just like they would do to us if needed.
Daniel Meservey <>
West chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 23:46:48
Given the demographics of Chatham, there being very few kids born each year to Chatham parents, then why would any one think that the school might need to be expanded? The property is not a High School any more.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 18:55:21
Best answer is to watch Ch 22 to get a sense of their feelings.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 16:13:40
With all the remaining unused land that school would still have after this, and the lack of any plans for it that I've heard about: Why shouldn't they give up this very small part of all that land?
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 16:10:07
If they are not going to turn over the land, why spend money on a study for land we can't have? Yes, it is a mistake not to return it to us but it seems if they don't want to give it back we should move on.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 14:03:15
I think they would be making a huge mistake by not giving us our land back.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 12:57:07
Hopefully the School Committee will decide not to take a vote until after a feasibility study is completed on the Stepping Stones site. Taxpayers should know the estimated total project cost for both sites in order to make an informed decision.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 11:28:48
We have watched the Monomoy School Comm. meeting on ch 22, 3 times. They do not seem to be in favor of letting us have our land back. If that is so, where do we go from there? Would we even need to have a Special Town Mtg?
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/17/2020 - 09:05:29
Kenny, I was there the day the car went into the breezeway at Shop Ahoy.I was working at Rupert's Market. The car missed my head by about a foot. At that time there were three phone booths in there. The first two were destroyed and there was a man in the third one. He was okay but we had a tough time getting him out as the door was bent. When we got out there he was still on the phone. Do I know you? You seem to have been around for a while.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Sun 02/16/2020 - 12:42:59
Kenny, you're right, Nick had his shop in that narrow opening where the locksmith is now. You just about had to turn sideways to fit in there.

The only picture I've seen of him is in Rob Carlisle's book from about twenty years ago; Nick being sworn in as a teller or constable, one of the two. He looks just as I remember him. Always friendly with us.

Jared Fulcher
North Chatham , MA USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 18:46:13
Yes, Chrysler Imperial was what I recalled, too, but didn't know it was a summer person. Can still see it wedged right in there. Expensive car back then. Sort of a subdued misty green, maybe?

Oh I bet there are definitely some barbershop stories around, and not 100 percent of them for the re-telling these days either. Kind of a gathering place with its regulars, customs, talk, smoke, magazines, etc. But no sheep, lol. Possibly some hair salon stories out there by any chance?

Interesting about Sonny. Now I know what was actually in that Vitalis bottle!

USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 18:09:26
Sorry, I give you this:
"Where do sheep go to get trimmed? The Bah Bah shop."

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 17:23:06
Who knew there were so many Chatham barbershop stories out there? Wasn't Nicholas's mother the Town Clerk at one time? Not Mabel Mallowes, but another Mabel. Nick served the community well, as did David Stevenson later in Orleans.
Sonny Walker, later a Chatham barber, was one of the last Coast Guardsmen who knew how to operate the Nauset Light with kerosene lamps, before it was electrified.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 17:09:04
Oh dear, I hope it wasn't my Aunt Agnes (330 Stage Harbor Rd) who drove her Chrysler Imperial from Nashville up every summer.....big fins....big woman.....1940s and 1950s.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 15:38:38
Yes, that's right, Mabel's son Nick moved from next to the Atwood Store into the addition to Shop Ahoy, pretty sure anyway. He might have also done haircuts in peoples' homes, too? Maybe even in the kitchen of his mother's house on Barcliff Ave. at some point, while just starting out?

There was a little opening between the original Shop Ahoy building and the addition, with one or two phone booths (remember phone booths?) part way between front and back.

Really Really Trivial Trivia: Anyone recall the make of the car that got wedged inside that opening after having been parked directly in front of it? I think it was one of those push-button-on-the-dash automatic transmission jobs, not one with a shift lever on the column. Pretty big car, big fins, pretty new I think, which was probably why the wrong button got mistakenly pushed and then the gas stepped on? Pretty funny at the time, no one seriously hurt but maybe a little embarrassed (hope I'm not offending anyone).

USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 14:38:11
I remember going to Nick the barber with Dad when I was a kid, but he was in West Chatham at that time. I remember his imposing figure, collared shirts and his big belt buckle. When it was Dad's turn in the chair, I would go and get comfortable in the unused chair in back.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham , MA USA - Sat 02/15/2020 - 09:42:41
And before it was the Children's Shop it was the apartment where my Grandmother lived and I stayed with her. Her name was Clara Burgess Eldredge, her husband was "China" Josh. Josh was brother to Good Walter Eldredge... Josh and Walter built 3 skiffs in the basement of Walter's house. The names were Clara, Louise and Christine. Josh and Clara had 3 children, Josh Junior died of a hemorrhage, lived only 5 days. Christine died after 5 years, she died of pneumonia.. As you can see Louise, my mother, was the only survivor.. Lucky Herb, Gordon and John Pratt...
Gordon Pratt
USA - Fri 02/14/2020 - 11:27:48
Tom Janes' barbershop was in the building owned by Johnny Nickerson who had a liquor store in the other half. The Paddock was in the building where Jane Nickerson had the Children's Shop. Did David Stevenson work in Sonny Walker's barbershop for a while?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 23:41:53
Joe Orlando, known as Joe the barber had a shop next to the triangle.
Bill P
South Chatham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 16:04:13
Thanks Wayne...
Gordon Pratt
USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 15:12:56
Yes Gordon, I have a post card showing that.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 14:17:50
Barry..... Am I correct in saying the band stand was located between the bowling alley and the Town office building lot ?
Gordon Pratt
USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 13:56:38
I did too Gordon.
Barry Fulcher <>
CHATHAM, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 13:28:11
And West of Forgerons Shoe Store was Ed Mallows Bowling Alley where I set up pins and played pool back in the 40s...
Gordon Pratt
USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 13:08:01
No Dick, Tom James was near Forgerons Shoe Store, now Yankee Ingenuity. That was where I got my first haircut. Nick the Barber had his barber shop next to Atwoods Grocery store across from Wayside Inn.
Barry Fulcher <>
CHATHAM, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 12:02:23
Next to the Chatham Theater (now The Orpheum), there was the old A&P., with the likes of Tom Slavin, Bucky Goodwin, Cliff Rourke, Gene Bladen, and Manager Rusty Eldredge. Adjoining it was the office of Ken Pratt and the Cape and Vineyard Electric Company. Then the steep driveway. Actually, Sonny Walker had his barber shop near Sandis Diner. Did Tom Janes occupy that shop before Sonny?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 10:59:45
The one near the A&P was run by Tom James
Daniel Meservey <>
West chatham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 09:28:46
Was the barber shop being remembered in the strip mall next to the Old A&P? I vaguely recollect my brother getting a haircut in a shop there. I had to watch & wait. Thought it was kid of a neat place. Didn't do consignment in my youth but DID shop at Scrimshaw Trading when it actually sold 2nd-hand clothes out of barrels!!! Wore one of the wonderfully soft flannel shirts I bought there until it disintegrated!!! Good times.
USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 09:26:11
I remember that shop and how nice it was.
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 07:27:43
The consignment shop was run by my mother and aunt. It was called Next to New.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 02/13/2020 - 06:21:36
Thanks to Barry for confirming the fufu memory. I want to say there was also a consignment shop in the same building but that may be pushing the memory a bit.
USA - Wed 02/12/2020 - 23:06:22
Barry - thank you. So many of these former town characters - I forget who was who. Glad someone remembers them. I just remember bits and pieces.
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 02/12/2020 - 20:52:22
correct email address
Barry Fulcher <>
CHATHAM, MA USA - Wed 02/12/2020 - 14:40:12
Judy, that Joe came from Hawaii, I think he might have worked at Christopher Ryder.
Barry Fulcher <>
CHATHAM, MA USA - Wed 02/12/2020 - 14:36:51
Was he called Pineapple Joe? I seem to remember my grandmother talking about him. . .
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 02/12/2020 - 10:32:34
Dick, and Kenny, that was Joe Orlando, originally he came from Puerto Rico, and he was the barber who said fufu!!
Barry Fulcher <>
CHATHAM, MA USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 20:57:17
lol, forgot all about Joe the Barber. Wasn't he in that "strip mall" at the bottom of Seaview Street, next to Gregorian's? Not sure I remember this right, but I think I can hear him talk with a little bit of a foreign accent? Obviously, a lot of people fled to this country from Europe before, during, and after WW2. Wonder whether Joe was one. I want to say he had a name for the liquid he put in your hair. Fufu? You want some fufu? he would ask. Maybe that was someone else.
USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 19:04:23
Regarding barber shops in Chatham, for some reason I didn't visit Tom Janes, but rather Joe The Barber. Can't remember his name.
Early on, at Old Harbor Road, Dave Ryder was the barber, using hand powered clippers for his three boys. That taught me to SIT STILL, or have the clippers get caught in my hair and produce hurt if I moved.
Sorry if I disrupted the thread about where the COA should be. Look for my Letter to the Chronicle .

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 16:54:51
Judy and everyone else. Nobody should be afraid of what this group is doing. We wish we could go to their meetings but they seem to be closed. Have to wait until town meeting but believe we will see a well presented plan. We look forward to it and think every one else does too. 500 people said we need to take another look at this. They deserve their chance to show us why and how.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 16:36:26
Amy - totally agree with you. I found it disturbing to hear the comments made by Mr. Nicastro and Mr. Dykens as to the petitioner's wording on the explanation. The folks that spearheaded the petition could not have been much clearer with the wording as to the advantages of the Stepping Stones property. The BOS are certainly against it - and I'd love to know why. It's obvious it is much less expensive than what they "envisioned" at 1610. They should be trying to work with us instead of against us. They should be embarrassed that a citizen brought this to them and they tried to knock it down. Now they are forced to act on a petition that had over 500 signatures and it shows you how clearly they screwed up. Never even an apology. The Finance Committee also has their number. There are so many things going on in this Town that need attention paid to that it's disturbing. This is only one of the things we see that has been brought to light.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 13:30:22
It's pretty clear from watching the BOS meeting last evening that most are digging in their heels on the COA and their desire to have it at 1610. They seem to be doing whatever they can to thwart the efforts of the petitioners of the Stepping Stones Road site. Shame on them for not listening with an open mind to 500 + voters.
USA - Tue 02/11/2020 - 11:57:33
John, I found your post interesting. I never knew that Jimmy was married to Tom Janes. I do remember Ralph Bellamy coming to CHS for a special assembly that apparently his son had a part in. I'm always interested in Village lore since my Grandmother Wheeler lived on School Street and I spent much time there. Great memories.
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Mon 02/10/2020 - 21:07:35
Jimmy Walsh Taylor was married Tom Janes, the barber, before she married Ed Taylor. They lived in the Walsh House on the corner of School Street and Hallett Lane. Jimmy ran a summer nursery school and Billy Bellamy went there for two summers. I went most days and knew Billy pretty well only 70 plus years ago.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/10/2020 - 18:49:45
Anyone know if the BOS are going to discuss the school property tonite? It's not on the agenda but you never know whats up with them.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/10/2020 - 12:18:05
The 7c's was run by the Clarks. It was where Shawns office is
Daniel Meservey <>
West chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/10/2020 - 09:10:43
I knew Bill pretty well. He worked for a year or two at Chatham Furniture Store in the office when I worked there, before he did coffee shop thing. Had him over for dinner a few times. He was pretty much of a loner. He was the adopted son of Ralph Bellemy the Actor. Lived for a time at the Gould cottages in West Chatham. Good guy.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/10/2020 - 07:30:25
Pretty sure Claras was in the post office building on the 28 end. Someone did take over the 7cs after it closed and before Bills opened but cant remember who had it.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 20:23:18
Mr. Ryder. Don't know that answer to that, maybe one of the Baker boys or Miss Norma might know:..
Chick <ccjunk466@gmail .com>
MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 19:20:59
Was Clara Bearse's place on the end of the building closest to 28? Four shops in the building altogether and a few apartments above? She made a lot of pies? Maybe sometimes had a lead foot, going all the way from Cedar Street?
USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 19:09:44
Did the 7 C's take the place of Clara's?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 17:34:13
Thanks for the answers. Bill's Kitchen. Couldn't remember the name. Was a popular spot for third shift Harwich cops to meet each other for coffee, often all three patrol units simultaneously, no coverage for their whole town. Norm Fennell and/or Bill Greenwood must have found out some of the details from John Raneo near when Raneo retired, maybe before. Little bit of an internal storm over it, early 70s. Don't think Raneo was happy about them all being off base together. Threats quietly made in Chatham by one of the Harwich patrolman about using his sap. Thankfully Chatham police weren't really involved. Different times and quieter then for sure. Would be all over YouTube today. Forgot about the 7 C's restaurant. Too bad about the sad ending, famous father and all. Thanks again.
USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 15:08:42
Before he had his place called "Bills Kitchen" he worked at least one summer as the guide at the Chatham Windmill. He started out at [least as far as we know] in the old Clarks 7 C's small building next to the S. Chatham post office. He then moved next to the old Cumbies in S. Chatham. Homestyle cooking like New England boiled dinner followed by split pea soup a couple days later. He came to a very sad ending.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 11:31:55
"Bills Kitchen".. he had a pinball machine..
Chick <>
MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 10:50:52
Yes, yes and yes. Didn't last long, as I recall.
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 02/08/2020 - 07:32:09
Anyone remember that 24-hour diner in S. Chatham next to Cumberland Farms, on the corner of Morton Road? Did Ralph Bellamy's son own it or work there?
USA - Fri 02/07/2020 - 20:28:45
Watching TV this am and seeing actor James Cromwell being interviewed on talk show...maybe it's just me but he looks and sounds much like our John Sweeney from S Chatham...just a observation.
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Thu 02/06/2020 - 10:35:02
I am so pleased that the voices of reason and common sense have been so active in Chatham. I applaud their efforts.
If Richard E. Ryder, who resides permanently across the street, could vote I think he would be in favor of building a COA building on Town Owned Land near where he is. Back in 1933, when he died, a support group for elderly people was unheard-of. I think it was called neighbors looking out for each other.

Richard Gould Ryder <>
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 17:50:41
Alice. You are correct. All Municipal and Conservation properties were rejected at the Town Staff level. At the August 5 BOS meeting, the Middle School property was never discussed publicly. Voters were shocked to learn at the Special Town Meeting on January 4 from a citizen -not the Town- there were 32 acres. We were also told that night it was owned by the District. Had we known that wasn't true and it's town owned, I think 1610 would likely have failed. Selectman Nicastro's statement in the CCT that it was up to "advocates" to bring this forward earlier is passing the buck. We pay Town staff to do that. It shouldn't be the job of private citizens to have to be watchdogs and then blamed. Dismissing 511 signatures collected in the dead of winter in only 4 days, and the intelligence of those signing, is divisive and may backfire. If we don't offer Stepping Stones as an alternative, it is likely 1610 will not get 2/3 and the COA will be left with nothing. Not a good strategy.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 11:39:17
There is certainly nothing wrong with slowing things down on 1610 Main and giving this new location a good going over. Like the old saying goes [almost] Lets measure twice and build once!!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 10:58:52
The bike path is in a fairly steep gully, thus making for a natural separation for the Senior Center. A Selectman who criticized said that it's a quiet neighborhood. This is a problem? There's a big cemetery right across the street, and I highly doubt that users of this facility would pose a disruption for anyone in the few (mostly seasonal) abutting houses.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 10:47:47
I agree that by already being separated by bike path, that portion of land is not really practical for any school usage and I seriously doubt if anyone ever goes into it now. Plus, there's a very large undeveloped amount of land along the west and north sides of the school so it's not like we'd be taking their last vacant open space.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 10:20:15
The BOS seemed to be surprised when it was first brought up at the Special Town Meeting. From that point forward folks realized the many positive aspects of that site vs the negatives of 1610 Main Street. The young folks that may have questions should continue their research more thoroughly to better understand the advantages which include financial as well as location. The bike path that goes around it isolates the building and parking from any intrusion to any playing fields, tennis courts, etc of school property.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 09:53:36
Wondering why the elementary school was put on the table in the very beginning (Nov. 2016) and not the middle school. Fact is the public never knew about the middle school possibility until a citizen finally figured it out after it was too late. This site is in no way being utilized by the school, so I do not understand why some parents would oppose declaring it surplus.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 09:37:37
Good Morning John. Article in todays CC TIMES says the town did evaluate the land in the past and turned it down. If that is true it must have been done in Ex Session. Nobody seems to have any memory of it. It is possible it got passed over by BOS thinking Monomoy District owned it. We are also hearing that parents with school age kids do not want land taken from the school campus. We just don't know.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 02/04/2020 - 08:44:35
One clear advantage to locating the COA on this latest site near the school is the fact the property in West Chatham will remain on the tax rolls!
Richard Gould Ryder <>
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 02/03/2020 - 16:35:47
Alice: Just curious - back when they were first discussing sites, and then after the Middle Rd didn't go, did anyone from public push it like they did now? I don't recall any such advocation for that site. Also, I suspect that most everyone including BOS felt/presumed that it was not possible to use any of the school land once the Monomoy district was formed.
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Mon 02/03/2020 - 15:27:43
The real question is why the BOS never discussed this land in public! We could have had a new COA building up and running by now. How sad! Some one on the BOS really has to answer this question.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 02/03/2020 - 09:02:17
Those 500 signatures were obtained in less than one week, in the quiet of winter. That alone should tell folks how incredibly against 1610 folks were.for a senior center. It just isn't feasible.
W Chatham , MA USA - Sun 02/02/2020 - 18:20:20
Thanks John H. for that link. Very impressive that 500 voters signed a petition to consider the site near the school a possibility for the COA.
Richard Gould Ryder <>
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 02/02/2020 - 17:39:37
This week's Airport Commission was disastrous. Among other things the commission arrogantly shot down the Selectmen's guidance in forming an Airport Advisory Committee and starting the 20-year plan from scratch. One pilot from Orleans sarcastically said in the Chronicle on Wednesday that Chatham citizens think they own the airport. WHAAAT? He doesn't own a house here and doesn't pay Chatham taxes. He should stay in Orleans.
Chatham , MA USA - Fri 01/31/2020 - 16:53:20
Via their FB post:
It describes the petition and results...

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Fri 01/31/2020 - 16:14:30
I heard that Dr Gupta was moving there in March.
W Chatham , MA USA - Fri 01/31/2020 - 09:03:08
Heard on the grapevine that both doctors at Oppenheim Medical are moving to Fontaine Medical. Anyone else know anything about this?
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/31/2020 - 07:08:22
Did you know the oldest house in Chatham is up for demolition? 1700 or earlier. 68 Shell Drive. We have got to save it! Join our citizens group., 774-722-0822
Ellen Briggs <>
Chathsm, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 20:05:15
I for one have strong interest in both the "lost" boathouse and the COA being located on Stepping Stones Rd.. So I welcome all posts on these two issues.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 19:51:44
Emily: One advantage of the format of this site is that it's not threaded so multiple topics and conversations can exist simultaneously just like at a party. So if Richard and others want to discuss the boathouse, nothing stops you and others from discussing COA, ok? Just read past those posts that may not interest you. Maybe you'll need to use the page that shows all posts and not just last five as main page does but it's easily available.
J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
Clearwater, FL USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 19:46:06
Petitions have been turned in. Thank you to everyone who signed. We shall see what the next steps are in a few days. It's apparent there is significant interest in this new parcel of land.
W Chatham , MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 19:20:40
Richard Ryder please let us continue with the COA conversation!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 19:15:17
How shall we proceed in buying the 1936 USCG Boathouse back and having it become the new shellfish upweller building at the Mitchell River Bridge site? That project has been in the works for some time. The1936 building is very close to the proposed new building in size.
Richard Gould Ryder <>
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 17:24:01
Time for an influx of new town leaders/managers/etc.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 13:43:13
Well remember they didn't even realize it was town property when it was suggested at the meeting. I think that says a lot in itself. With the fish pier (hopefully) nearing completion notice how they are now saying how great the work-quality is. I'm sure the lawsuit will be dropped.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 13:20:04
BOS Chair also said no one came forth with the idea of using Stony Hill land. Isn't that their job? They said over and over they they had looked at ALL town owned land going back to their decision to place COA building on Middle Rd.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 12:55:27
Alice - - The Chairman of the BOS tried to say it was discussed in August - but we've since found out that was not true. They should be ashamed of themselves, along with the Town Manager and others involved in the selection process. I hope this is a lesson for everyone - never, ever underestimate the power of voters.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 10:40:07
Everyone has their own opinion for a new COA but the only one that will count is how they vote at the next meeting.
Janice Susan
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 10:33:24
The existing COA is not adequate and a new facility is definitely needed. The Middle School parcel is a perfect fit and I think it could be built there for much less than $8.6 million. I hope that voters will do the right thing.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 10:01:05
FYI: There's an article in Chronicle this week (just published via website and Facebook) about the COA on school property.
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 09:52:23
Since the Special Town Meeting earlier this month,I have talked to quite a few people about the new COA. It seems they do not want a new COA no matter where people want to put.They don't want to spend 8.6 million dollars for a new place when the one they have now is adequate.I totally agree with them.I think at the Town Meeting in May, it will all be voted down,not because they don't accept where it will go but that they just don't want it.
Janice Susan
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 09:26:35
The question is, "Why did the BOS never discuss this location in an open meeting?" How could they ignore this in favor of Middle Rd? We could have a new COA building up and running. What a boondoggle! Going to be some very red faces!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 09:15:52
Right on Dan.
Thomas Doane <>
WEST CHATHAM, MA USA - Wed 01/29/2020 - 00:04:04
That is the first place that makes any sense.
Daniel Meservey <>
West chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 20:38:00
I have reviewed the packet of information explaining the plan for locating the COA at the Stepping Stone Road location. FINALLY, some good old-fashioned common sense has come to the fore! Everything about this site is smart, far-sighted, congenial to all ages for years to come. Seniors will be safe, one story, close to town, enjoying the sights of younger folks nearby enjoying the bike paths, tennis, Pickleball and ball fields. Why not? Have the " powers that be" become tired of the effort involved to find a suitable place.....when it was right under their nose?
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 19:38:40
Thanks Richard. This site makes a lot more sense and a one story building will fit nicely on it. It's ridiculous to have staff sequestered away upstairs when they should be interacting with the Seniors. I truly believe if this site isn't picked the other will most definitely be voted down in May and this will be the end of all discussions.
W Chatham , MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 18:58:41
I think Fred is referring to the "hills" at both ends of the road, not the site itself. When I worked for Eugene Hanson back in late 1963, I helped paint those cemetery railings. There was no road there back then, just dirt paths if I am not mistaken.
Richard Gould Ryder <>
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 17:29:49
Fred --- there are no steep hills. You'll see the plans soon enough. No topographical issues. Much safer with three ways to access it. No rotaries. I'd like to think your comment is in jest since you obviously aren't aware there are no steep hills but I have no idea.
W Chatham , MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 16:59:14
Judy, Stepping Stones should not be subjected to additional traffic. Between the steep decent and ascent on either end and both intersections on curves and subject to poor lines of site. Plus you have to pass a graveyard whichever way you travel. Is that the kind of reminder we want our loved seniors to endure?
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 16:22:54
There is a petition being circulated in Chatham asking for a feasibility study to consider locating the Council on Aging at the Middle School property on Stepping Stones Road. There's room for a one-story structure with green space on a safe road with room for parking and expansion, and doesn't impact the bike path or baseball fields. If anyone has any interest in signing one prior to Friday please contact me and I will tell you where you can find one.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/28/2020 - 14:05:41
Wait, your wife was excluded even though she and you are members?
Thanks, but I guess I will wait until these folks figure out another venue that will accommodate those who wish to hear what they have to say.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/26/2020 - 18:47:55
Richard, Most people that attend these events don't need or have tickets they are members like us. Do you want us to get your name on the list if there is another one?
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/26/2020 - 17:56:17
My take is they opened the doors way before 1:15. Not fair. It wasn't inclement at all. Even so, I guess we would have been too late if we had been in line at 1:00.
The reality is there is a HUGE amount of interest in this 400th Anniversary of the Mayflower arrival, her trip, etc. I expect the shallop Elizabeth Tilley to be tied up alongside the CG36500 at Rock Harbor sometime this coming season..
Should we be selling tickets in advance? Wait, how else could we sell them? Like, advance reservations. An oxymoron if ever there was one.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/26/2020 - 17:41:01
Richard, My wife got there right after you and did not get in either. They did tell her that they were going to try to do another in two weeks and had a sign up sheet. We have some friends there and if you would like we can probably get your name on it. Let me know. Word is the people were all there and in line when the doors opened. The staff was overwhelmed. It is the end of January and a nice day and people are looking for something to do.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/26/2020 - 16:50:20
Drove 1/2 hour to get to the Atwood House for a 2 o'clock presentation today. Got there at 1:17, after doors supposedly opened at 1:15. How did the parking lot fill up, parking on the roadside be all taken, and the place sell out in 2 minutes? Suggest advance sale of tickets would be more fair.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/26/2020 - 15:30:26
Richard, perhaps you remember that Jake came to most of our Little League games when we were Gulls, so many years ago.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/25/2020 - 21:45:05
When Jake worked for Chase Chevrolet on Old Harbor Road, I might have been 10 or 11. We had plentiful crops of rhubarb, which I found out were, for me, a cash crop. I sold rhubarb stalks to Jake and other mechanics. Bad news: he later nicknamed me Ruebub.
You can't make these stories up.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/25/2020 - 16:46:15
I was lucky to listen to Jake Worth in my younger years. He told me of the wartime days wherein they would walk the beach looking for German saboteurs. IIRC, he and/or his guys rolled a couple of them up once (my memory is hazy so he might have been recalling that a few were balled-up).

He was a font of stories and some great information.

USA - Sat 01/25/2020 - 15:39:50
Oh how I wish I had known of his experiences at Old Harbor. For some reason, I didn't know enough to ask him questions, and neither did I know enough to ask Jake Worth about his experiences at Monomoy Station. Or to ask Good Walter who lived down the hill, on the beach, from Sammy Morgan. I used to empty Sam's cat box once a week, before cat litter. Got new beach sand / cat litter near Good Walter's classic abode.
Anyone got any Sammy Morgan stories? I think he was a WWI Army Cavalry officer based on what I saw in his garage.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 01/24/2020 - 16:44:26
I have warm memories of Uncle Ben and Annie from the war years when we stayed on Highland Ave. My mother would take me and my sister over to visit them and I would sit on his lap. What a wonderful mustache he had and stories to delight a small child.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Fri 01/24/2020 - 15:28:02
Just to set the record straight, I want to say that Surfman Benjamin Oliver Eldredge was a Surfman at Old Harbor Station when it was built in 1898. He married Annie Slavin, who became the Principal of the Chatham High School. Benjamin Slavin Eldredge was their only child, who was killed in a fall while employed in the construction of the Cape Cod Canal Railroad bridge in 1934. He is buried at the the Evergreen Cemetery in Harwich. Not in the concrete at the bridge site.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 01/23/2020 - 19:19:24
I missed the upwelled vs upweller typo. The print on the screen is pretty small, and the program changes correct spelling to more common words I guess.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 01/20/2020 - 13:48:15
The CG36500 is 74 this year, but is already on the National Register of Historic Places and has been for over ten years. I am okay with the boathouse being deemed "Historically Significant". Are there preliminary plans for a new upwelled building?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 01/20/2020 - 13:45:52
"Historically significant" is the operative definition.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/20/2020 - 07:26:48
If we stick to this idea that anything over 75 years old is historic we are going to have start protecting shabby post World War II ranches built on concrete slabs. While they may be just fine for the current owners they are hardly historic.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 19:48:22
The CG boathouse is over 75 years old. Ergo, it's historic.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 19:30:30
The Chatham Boathouse is NOT that historic, it having been built in 1936. However, it was a key to the ongoing maintenance of the CG36500, which would have been hauled out there for bottom painting, etc. I have photos of the 36500 being there.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 18:00:26
In line with Ellen's post, and Debbie's:. I want to find out what interest there might be in getting the USCG Boathouse BACK to Chatham, to serve as a building near the Mitchell River Bridge to house the proposed baby mercenaria mercenaria upwellers that are so important to the shellfishing industry in Chatham. I am willing to start a Go-Fund Me group to get things going.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 17:41:30
Have any of you heard of Protect Our Past, a newly formed not for profit organization which is focused on producing a full length fill documentary about the issues surrounding saving historic properties? As you know, you can't build a historic house. We are losing too many in Chatham, on the Cape and around the nation. Check our out website, Hey, if you are interested, let me know!
Ellen Briggs <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 17:16:04
FYI: The Chronicle Weekend Update email of coming possible stories this week includes: Fish Pier update; Stage Harbor Coast Guard boathouse in Hull; COA using middle school property...all topics that have been discussed here! So maybe we'll get some answers/info that hasn't been provided before...
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sun 01/19/2020 - 13:25:52
Richard- I suggest that the Google view isn't current. If I had your email address, I'd send you the photos.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 19:04:57
Senior Chief Roloff told me the other day that there isn't that much water there, even if it is quite wide to a viewer from the Lighthouse overlook. He said their crews have to go across at an angle to find the deepest water too pass over the shallows.. Of course, that was last week.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 18:59:39
I was at the Lighthouse the other day and boy are those some dramatic changes. The land extends to about the beginning of where South beach started, filling in nicely. However their is no South Beach visible as far as I could see, just solid water with 3' breakers.

When did South beach disappear and how far down from the lighthouse is it before the beach starts? All I saw was water.

Bill P
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 18:48:56
Google Maps for the address you show does not show more than one building, although I do see some relic type CG boats around the building at 125 Main Street. I will have to do a drive by to compare the photos I have with the buildings you suggest are there.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 17:46:05
Richard- Yes, two Coast Guard boathouses in Hull. I believe the Harbormaster just learned about this, so you could get in touch with him.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 17:35:38
125 Main Street just to the left of the white building with the high pitched roof.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 17:22:11
Just looked at Google Maps for Windmill Point in Hull. The old USCG boathouse is still there in what is dated a 2020 satellite view. Wonder where the other one is?........ Do we have an address? It would be very cool to get it back to Chatham.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 16:49:39
OK: So there are two USCG Boathouses in Hull?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 16:43:23
Richard, This is definitely the Chatham USCG Boathouse. It has the distinctive dormers. It's up on blocks, being stored on someone's property. I hope that someone can track down how it got there.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 14:57:22
Wait a second: the boathouse at Hull (Hull Gut) is not the one from Chatham. It is of similar design. I have been in that one as well, and I believe it is still being used by a rowing club to store their boats and equipment.
The last I knew, the Chatham Boat House was in Quincy.
By the way, The Pilgrim Monument was built by a Cashman Company from Quincy. Wonder if it is the same family as the present Cashman Construction outfit.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 13:31:22
Saw this via Facebook and sharing it here to help get word out...Town officials want folks to email Coast Guard re planned removal of Chatham Beach lighted whistle buoy C and how it is needed to be kept in place. See this press release on town site:

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 12:06:47
I believe that building was built in 1936. Just before it was removed from Stage Harbor, I went inside it and took a lot of photos. It was very well built, and maybe now just showing exterior deterioration. If the present owner, Jay Cashman of Strong Island fame, would be willing to return it, it would be relatively easy for his crew to bring the barge in at high water and reposition the building on pilings. That is how it was built in the first place!
Of course, the Stage Harbor entrance channel will have to be dredged just before the barge shows up. I understand as of now it is quite shoal in places.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 11:34:08
I like the idea of bringing the Coast Guard Boathouse back to Chatham and using it as the upweller building on Stage Harbor almost directly across from the original location.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/18/2020 - 07:25:29
I've just seen photographs of our long lost USCG boathouse. It's sitting on a lot in Hull and it's in a very sad state of neglect. Wishing we could get it back. It would make for a wonderful upwelling building.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/17/2020 - 17:45:07
What a tale could be told of the financial benefits of selling alcohol to folks back then, and during Prohibition. Yes, I know there were many who were against such dealings. I surmise it was like us going ten miles over the speed limit.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 01/17/2020 - 17:10:00
I believe that Marcellus Eldredge helped pay for the Methodist Church clock. It is possible that his brother, Fisher, also contributed. One story I heard was that there were folks in Chatham who wondered if the Town should accept the gift since the Eldredge fortune was earned in the brewery business. Of course, like the library, more sensible heads prevailed and the Town accepted the Eldredge gifts.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/17/2020 - 17:05:20
When I and others were Chatham kids, without a watch or certainly a cell phone, the Methodist Church clock was our timepiece. If we were downtown, it was certainly visible. If we within earshot, either that clock or the one on the High School tower sufficed. I never had a wristwatch until I graduated from High School in 1957. I still have a watch that my Grandfather, Richard E. Ryder, bought in 1917. He must have cherished this , knowing that all of his rescues, etc would have been recorded using his new pocket watch.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 01/16/2020 - 19:13:30
A good way to keep tabs on what's happening at the Fish Pier and other waterfront projects is to watch the videos from the channel 18 Archive of the committee meetings where they report on the status of these projects.
AP Ryan <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 01/16/2020 - 18:29:20
Went by the Chatham Fish Pier this afternoon. A place dear to my heart .Got lucky and talked with the Wharfinger. He was very upbeat, complimenting the TWO men who are working daily on the project. Stringers for the stairs are being prepared offsite, etc . Problem appears to be the company not supporting the workers to the needed level. They have requested materials in advance but their needs have not been met in a timely fashion.
The company has not provided an empty dumpster since last fall, so the construction trash is building up. Sorry Wayne, but I had other issues and went over there on short notice.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 01/16/2020 - 17:37:45
Cynthia: Maybe (based on Chronicle article) look up the minutes of the 1910 Town meeting where they took responsibility for it?
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Thu 01/16/2020 - 11:50:33
Whose idea was it to buy the "clock" from the Methodist Church? Just curious.
Cynthia Moore <>
South Chatham, MA USA - Thu 01/16/2020 - 11:01:05
Richard R. Let me know when you will be there and I will meet you and we can look at it together.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/15/2020 - 21:20:32
Emily, I accept the challenge and will give a full report.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 01/15/2020 - 16:47:07
Hmmm, something is fishy at the Fish Pier! Richard Ryder, why don't you drive down from Eastham, have a look and report to the rest of us in the Chat-M-Room? I see it daily on the live video cams and it sure looks unfinished, flimsy, no elevator, no stairs, no access, no worker bees. If Alice is correct about pending legal action, will we endure another summer of non-completion? We need citizen action to help our fishing industry.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 01/15/2020 - 14:25:41
We think that now that the whole thing is going to court, the town has gone silent. Lawsuits probably coming from both sides.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/15/2020 - 10:40:38
Richard - I'm pretty sure it hasn't been completed or we'd hear about it. I think folks have just given up on any expectations as to when it will be done.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/15/2020 - 08:49:06
Moving on, when will the Fish Pier project be completed? Or is it done already?
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 01/14/2020 - 17:19:29
Thank you all for your kind comments.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 01/10/2020 - 16:57:55
Yes Nancy, Judy, and Richard I also enjoyed the article! I printed it and put away with my Pendelton stuff.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 20:43:02
Yes brother Richard, I also enjoyed your article on the 36500!
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 20:09:54
Richard - I'm sorry I neglected to mention the excellent article you wrote on the Coast Guard Motor Lifeboat. It was a great read - thank you!
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 19:33:36
Anyone read the article in the daily paper today on the feasibility study Brewster is doing to consolidate two schools and use one for a Community Center? They've talked about getting a Community Center for more than a decade. Sound familiar? It'll probably be up and running before the new COA is.
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 19:22:23
Isn't there a Non-Voting section ? A vote by hand requires a person to hold up their card. A voice vote is to me not reliable, as folks tend to shout louder than they might otherwise. The moderator can only discern so much with a voice vote. If non-residents are in the mix, then a hand count with a card held up should be an absolute minimum way to count the votes.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 17:09:58
Just a thought.....why do they allow anyone without a voting card into any Town Meeting? Voice votes cannot be accurate, if this is the case. As a voter, I feel strongly in favor of ballot votes, although sad to see tradition disappear.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 16:14:21
Visiting Chatham soon. I hear that the Squire is a great place to eat and socialize.
Greenwich, CT USA - Wed 01/08/2020 - 09:34:21
As an aside to a very interesting ongoing subject, I wish to relay that Boatswain Mate Chief Travis Roloff, Executive Petty Officer (second in command) of Coast Guard Station Chatham was recently promoted to Senior Chief. He scored # 2 in a service wide exam to achieve his well earned promotion.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 17:24:26
I checked the RFP's on the Town website and the one for 6/28/19 has minimum 57,000 sf. The one for 12/8/17-1/12/18 has "minimum buildable upland at least 65,000 sf, based on M zoning setbacks".
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 15:34:38
Thanks Elaine. That's exactly what I was looking for.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 15:12:22
Debbie- The Request for Proposals (RFP) sent out June 2019 said a site of 70,000 sq ft. or greater would be highly advantageous. Less than 70,000 and greater than 64,000- advantageous. Less than 64,000 but greater than 57,000-least advantageous. 1610 Main is 55,000 +/- but 1/3 is a 49' drop to the pond. In 2018 they were looking for lots of 84,000 sq ft.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 14:42:08
John- Do you know what the minimum lot size requirement was prior to it being changed to 57,000 sf?
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 13:21:59
I would suspect that there's only a few of those various properties that were: large enough; buildable; sewer and water available; free from conservation or other restrictions; on readily accessible street/road; not in outlying areas of town; zoning potentially compatible or similar; etc.

The web page I found shows a couple of pages of properties at least. Remember that the town owns some very unusual and/or small parcels.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 13:07:23
Judy- I had to go through every single link on the Projects page in order to figure it out. Not easy because there doesn't seem to be any explanation for rejection of sites. Maybe BOS minutes and Channel 18 would help, but I'm not willing to go through all of them. I agree that there should be a single place where the information on vetting/reasoning can be found.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 13:05:35
Debbie -As I have found out by emailing Shanna earlier - there is no place where they are all compiled.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 01/07/2020 - 12:17:52
They're on the Town website Home page Projects link.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 20:32:14
Did I hear correctly at the meeting that 290+ town owned properties/land were vetted and rejected as possible sites for the COA??? I wonder if we, as tax payers are entitled to see that list?
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 18:42:22
The Town has always owned the school buildings and property. Generally the same for every town. The school district leases the building and generally is responsible for its maintenance. When I worked for the Town, we maintained the grounds of all the schools. In Harwich, the district maintains the grounds, or the Town would issue a bill to them to do it in their absence.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 17:40:07
How about a petition for the BOS to investigate the cost to use secret balloting at the annual town meeting
Southbury, CT USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 12:09:44
Again, Why didn't we think of asking the Selectmen about buying some property back from the School District? They will be asked now we are sure! It is a legitimate question that needs an answer. Can't wait.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 08:34:31
Adding to my previous post, if I'm reading the GIS slide correctly, the treed area abutting Stepping Stones is 75,131 square feet. The total area of the property is 31.749 acres.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 08:01:37
Assessor data has Town of Chatham owning the property. There's two soccer fields, one lacrosse field, one softball field and one baseball field (next to the tennis courts. There's also an area of trees between the bike path and Stepping Stones.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 07:51:27
The question about using school property was turned down because someone said it belonged to Monomoy School District. Who actually owns that land? I'll bet it belongs to the Town of Chatham unless a legal transfer to Monomoy happened.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 01/06/2020 - 07:28:53
Richard - for starters if your dad had been here he would never have gone along with a Special Town Meeting held over the holiday season. I also firmly believe ballot voting should have been the way to go. Huge shoutout to Bill Litchfield for putting Ms Davis and Mr Messina in their rightful places as they tried unsuccessfully to disrupt and take over the meeting. That alone was worth the price of admission and it was way past time those two were put in their place. So many folks talked about that afterwards - just outstanding.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 17:25:09
I am reluctant to tout the wireless voting that we have adopted in Eastham, ( We tend to resent people from "away" telling us what to do ) but I will say I think it allows for folks to vote their conscience and not be intimidated by their neighbors. It is not cheap, but neither is a Town Meeting done at its' best, where votes are taken by secret/ private ballot.
Wonder how Dave Ryder, a Chatham Selectman for 15 years, would have dealt with this issue.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 16:37:14
The problems Jared said said at the meeting of the current COA are lack of parking and topography. The same issues exist with 1610. Bob Ryder - as far as the ballot vote - that was something wasn't it? The biggest show of washashores I've seen in years - all gathered in one place to do one thing - continue to ruin our town.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 16:10:53
Looks like we get to drag it out until May. I heard several people say that we should at least conduct the feasibility study. But if you listened to Elaine's points, the site doesn't even meet the minimum size requirement. Not to mention the host of other problems.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 14:03:34
JudyP, I was there and voted for the secret ballot while being surrounded by hordes of people with minimal knowledge about what Chatham once was. When the main vote came, I watched many heads swiveling around to see how their neighbors had voted. Reminiscent of Britain's Parliamentary procedures?
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 12:12:52
We were a little amazed when the question about buying some school land back for a COA came up. It was a "Why didn't we think of that" moment. All of the time and energy we all have put into this may been avoided if someone had asked that question!!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 11:49:56
228 people voted against free land in the dead of winter. Had it required a 2/3 vote it would have been defeated. And h ad it not been "free", that number would have probably been much higher and defeated by a wider margin. We did not have the benefit of seeing the "Letter of Intent" before the vote- still being drafted by attorneys-to know what conditions have been placed on it by the seller. There's no reason that couldn't have been accomplished in time for the meeting to know what Town Meeting actually approved. No amount of time, money or design work can remedy the inherent problems of the size, shape, topography, or location of this site.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 11:40:21
We asked for a ballot vote at the meeting and the majority ruled against it.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 11:36:48
Wonder what the vote would have been if in ballot form...
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 01/05/2020 - 11:15:55
"Candy,popcorn,lollipops all free today"

Do we remember what happened next. Quote s from Chitty Chity Bang Bang for those under 50.

Their is always a catch, nothing is free.

Bill P
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 20:53:37
Doubtful it would have passed. Kind of like politics -"It's free so let's take it!". Not educated enough on the topic to realize there are some pretty hefty costs associated with it. But it's free so it's a good deal.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 19:49:15
Wonder what the vote would have been if the property had not been offered as a gift.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 18:54:36
Voters didn't show Bruce. That was the problem. Interestingly enough more showed up today than at regular town meeting. The age groups of 40-60 were clearing lacking in attendance.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 17:00:49
And even though it now required only a simple majority, it got at least 64%+ so while a 2/3 for purchase wasn't reached, it certainly was close to it and showed that it's apparently got more support than many believed it would.
J Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 16:55:14
We keep hearing that everyone is fed up with BOS and government's deceitful ways and how bad of an idea it is , etc etc and yet they voted overwhelmingly to approve. 409 to 228 is no contest, not even remotely close, so realistically, i don't know what you can hope for in May.
Harwich, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 16:47:08
Richard - it was surprising that many showed. Many were bused in compliments of the COA. Nonetheless it was an outstanding turnout. People had very strong opinions. The interesting facts are that the problems with the land can't be fixed and we get another chance to vote in May.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 16:42:04
Does the adage "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" apply here? Good news, IMHO, is that there were over 600 people who showed up to vote.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 16:23:53
it passed 409-228
Cynthia Moore <>
South Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 15:27:34
Regardless of current owner and gift, it's still an unsuitable site. I'm still voting "no"-
USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 09:39:22
Jared, my subconscious came to the same overall conclusion that you described. Still a vociferous "NO" vote from me.
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 09:29:09
Lets take 1610 Main off the table for a second. The real question revolves around the Town not being able to finish the projects it has going on and that really bothers us. On top of that, work on the trap Dock has begun. How is that going to go?
Truth is, voters have lost faith in the Towns ability to finish capital projects. Can we really begin another? We leave the answer up to you, the voters!

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 09:11:09
I'm surprised the COA with all their whining and lying about the size palace they need is settling for this when other options exist. They have done themselves no favors and more folks have turned against them because of their deceitful ways. This will end up being an empty building in five to ten years when their current "clients" are no longer with us. My age group and younger are more than disgusted with these folks and their levels of deception. You have to love the LTE in the Chronicle this week from our resident troublemaker in Florida calling out everyone that is against this. Apparently he can't absorb the facts proving this land isn't suitable. Perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black from a miserable man. Please go vote NO today. This is not over.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 01/04/2020 - 08:47:35
This "gift" to the Town smells completely calculated. I think Dollar Bill felt there might be enough opposition to defeat it, so why not kill that opposition with kindness. Like Judy and others have said, I think the location is crappy and the only reason we are facing this as a potential site, is that the horse's ass who bought it can't do anything with it and wants to get out from underneath it. He had no problem initially trying to screw the taxpayers by offloading this land for more than three times its assessed value. If you believe this is an act of Christmas cheer in honor of his mother and father blah blah blah, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 22:23:19
Debbie and Judy, I totally agree with both of you! I am sure that all businesses will suffer or close during the extended construction projects in W. Chatham, if they ever get under way or completed. I plan to use Old Queen Anne Rd more than ever, and the Orleans road to get around the mess. Past behavior of people in charge of Town projects is the best predictor of future behavior. Vote NO tomorrow and vote NO at the May Town Meeting......I will!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 19:07:19
Totally agree with you Debbie. We can still try to vote it down. As has been discussed on here there are other viable options that would work better.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 14:15:17
Living in the Old Village, I'm really trying hard to picture what it would be like to go there from June to September. Thinking about returning to my end of town from the COA and getting stuck in traffic backed up to the Cornfield is enough to dissuade me from ever wanting to go there. Many of our elders live to the East and they'll be faced with the same predicament. I'm very disappointed that this isn't a concern.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 14:04:14
Judy: Maybe because I'm using logic and common sense instead of an obvious hatred for these projects? You really need to look at this objectively as I am doing, and not objectionably.
J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 13:43:19
John - No one agrees with you on this subject as you have found out on here. Try as you may - but we don't agree. The problems still remain.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 12:54:52
Front dropoff: NOT needed/necessary due to close proximity of rear entrance. NOT an issue except for those looking for any excuse to be against it. An auxiliary front entrance for walk-ups could be easily accomplished via the planned front exit doors on second floor.
Roundabouts: Another NON issue. If true, which it's NOT, then ANY business or building between G Ryder and Barn Hill will be inaccessible to seniors, including OSJL, Oppenheim Medical, USPS, Larry's PX, etc. Roundabouts will make it easier to access any of these. And the improperly designed 'rotary' downtown has never deterred anyone from going there.

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 12:45:57
The issue still remains that it is an unsatisfactory piece of land. There is not enough parking and none will be secured from the abutters. There still have been no figures given as to the cost of the fill needed and what the retaining walls are going to cost. There still remains the issue of zoning needing to be changed. There still remains the issue of the conservation commission giving approvals for the massive amount of trees to be cut down. There still remains the issue that there will be no drop off in the front of the building . The seniors are still going to have to negotiate between two rotaries. This parcel Is just not suitable - and that's what we've said all along. Still go and VOTE NO. If it passes tomorrow we can have one more shot at town meeting in May to defeat it. This is dirty politics at its best .
WChatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 11:00:27
Mr Marsh donating his land presents us with the very definition of the word "Conundrum" Since the vote only requires a simple majority not a 2/3s vote, it is likely to pass in spite of the problems there. What is a voter to do?
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 10:16:45
What a crock.
WChatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 10:15:20
Marsh Offers To Donate Senior Center Land

Harwich, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 09:44:11
Here is some more. Go back to the part that ends, Its just such a shame.
Now Dr Bob may not have said what we have put down, but his creditability, surely, on this subject, is shot in this town. The weekly updates on the Pier have all gone away, "whats going on there" we hear people say. There is some small hope in the group 365, it may just help keep some hopes alive. Why hire so many Dept Heads from away? Whats wrong with the locals is what we all say. Now on channel 18 the COA looks brand new but on the mailer they sent us it looks like the old ladys shoe!
There is a little more but its late and we need some sleep. Hope you like it!

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 01/03/2020 - 00:23:14
Oh please add the were SO spot-on about the Town Debacles!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 19:52:45
To tell the truth there was a lot more to the poem but we thought we were running out of room. Can up the rest tomorrow if anyone cares to see it.

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 19:46:49
Happy New Year Richard! I hope folks are listening and pay attention. This is a poor choice for a COA and the town manager and others have proved themselves more than incompetent to handle the current projects in town - let alone use this unsatisfactory piece of land and try to concert it into a sub par COA. Alice blamed the gas company yet the fault lies with Mr Temple who should have been there with a ruler and figured out those pipes weren't placed deep enough. . These town employees are grossly overpaid for their subpar job performances. I don't think they realize how fortunate they are to still be employed. They wouldn't be on my watch - or would they be paid the salaries they are. It is disgusting and once again - it's time to take our town back. Enough is enough.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 17:55:55
Great job Alice! I was wondering if anyone currently knew how to actually rhyme anything! My favorite poem is by Robert Frost, who was formerly the Poet Laureate of this country. It was "Departmental" I want Pat to have it read at my funeral. Has to do with ants dealing with their recently departed. "the word goes out in formic, death has come to Jerry McCormick" etc
Having said that, I hope you all will go and speak your mind at the Special Town Meeting, and be happy that you still have the chance to speak.
My first Chatham Town Meeting was when I was 15. They bought a Huber Maintainer, which I now have parts from for my own machine.
Happy New Year everyone!
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 17:32:58
Outstanding!!! So true.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 16:57:18
Love the tune and and thinking
Josie <>
Chatham , MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 15:23:38
Town Meeting is coming and all over town, every ones smiles have been turned upside down. Some people are saying it's such a shame, that the airport would take their land by eminent domain. Dr Bob was heard saying softly, "If it was up to me, I'd push that darn fish pier right into the sea" The guy running the dump could use a butt kicking, he stopped the good folks from havin fun picken. And on top of that, no more paint from the shed, Whats wrong with that, whats wrong with his head? The fishermen say it wound be ever so nest if the Feds would declare Seals to be the other red meat! The Gas company engineers cant read the Rt 28 plans, they wont lay new pipe, they just don't give a dam. There is still more to come,people fighting over 1610 Main, People are angry, its just such a shame. From Forest Beach to the lighthouse we hear these words spoken, "Whats wrong with our town, our Governments broken!"
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 12:46:19
It's a gorgeous day. Folks should go walk it. Start on Capt Harding's land and follow it down back. You can see where trees have most likely been illegally cut on that parcel and the stack of firewood sitting there. Then you can look at the steep drop next to it. It's ridiculous. I walked it several times the past few days. Interesting what goes on there when no one pays attention.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 12:18:35
Common sense says that the West Chatham location is not suitable. Do we really need to spend $130K to be told that.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 01/02/2020 - 09:56:43
Here's hoping reason and good will prevail in 2020.
Harwich, MA USA - Wed 01/01/2020 - 08:26:20
Well said Richard. Highly doubtful Job Lot will allow them to park since the rotary will be taking out the entire left corner of their parking. I certainly wouldn't. This is probably why the Town hasn't even approached then .
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/30/2019 - 17:28:57
Expecting seniors, staff, or anyone else, to walk across Route 28 in daylight, or dark, to attend a Chatham COA event at the proposed site in West Chatham is not a responsible stance. Whether the 60 foot width is paved or not doesn't matter. Will there be a lit crosswalk, or two? Any concerned lawyer from Ocean State Job Lot should object to agreeing to having seniors use their parking lot if they don't visit the store.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 12/30/2019 - 17:20:02
John - just curious - when you were here this summer did you happen to walk the property at all? I walked it yesterday and experienced the more than severe drop in the back. I find it incomprehensible that town officials have not been able to provide the taxpayers a more than questionable estimate for the retaining walls and the massive amounts of fill that will be required. It's a dangerous steep drop. If this purchase were approved the only access to the building will be in the back which is crazy. Even if the price of the property were to drop to $500K - this parcel is still not a satisfactory choice. Why should we settle for this parcel of land when other options are available? Why should taxpayers buy into the ridiculous kool aid these unscrupulous people are trying to shove down our throats in January when folks are away? They can't even get the West Chatham Roadway right because they didn't supervise what was going on. They didn't even report the screw up here until September - yet many of us knew about it in June. Deception and cover up at its best. How about the fiasco at the fish pier? Now there's the trap dock mess. Do you really trust the judgment of these people with our money looking at what is going on in town now? In addition to the unknown cost, the proposed building just isn't suitable on that parcel of land. If past performance with our town manager and her overpaid managers is any indication of what to come - we may as well quit now. There are other options available. It's time to vote no on this purchase and demand those we elected to represent us do their job and find a solution that will be acceptable. This parcel of land is not suitable as many on this site have all agreed.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/30/2019 - 06:09:29
Elaine: No, I wasn't "up late...looking for a mistake" since I had immediately noticed that error when reading the Chronicle via web at noontime Thursday but as it was not directly related to the 1610 property itself, I chose to deal with it separately at later time. And by making remarks attacking the person vs the topic (as you did next) is what is against my rules here, just like at Town Meeting.

My research was certainly complete enough given that I gave explicit references to page 9 of the HSH/WCR plans which disproves your contention of "60 feet of paved surface". BTW, the multipurpose path will be on north side ONLY. The 60' ROW is NOT "ALL going to be paved"! It's not only me who disputes your claim, but also DPW, HSH and MassDOT via the approved plans that I referenced.

From the plans, it clearly shows that at Station 108.50+- where the Oppenheim crosswalk will be to Stations 111-113 near 1610, the most that would be paved of the 60' is 47.5' (32' roadway total + 5.5' sidewalk + 10' multipurpose path) with the remaining being grass, granite curbing or concrete ramps (at crosswalks). Given that there will be a 5' shoulder in that area, most bicyclists will likely use that -and- I don't see crossing a sidewalk (nor the path) as a problem for a pedestrian. The only real hazardous area for them is the 22' of the two travel lanes, which is a large reduction from the 40'+ that exists now.

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Mon 12/30/2019 - 01:53:21
No need for a new place Mr Glover. They can utilize the building they have and use the Community Center for overflow programs. It's time to put a halt on this spending spree the Town has been on - With OUR money.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 20:59:26
The only sensible place for the new COA is right next to the Community Center. It's a no-brained!
Denis Glover <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 17:06:34
Judy, Debbie and Elaine. You are all correct!!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 11:52:24
I actually agree with you both on the Community Center. It's a well known FACT the COA scheduling is poor and leaves little to be desired. My point in all of this is why settle for a poor property choice when there are obviously other options?
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 10:02:09
I totally agree Debbie. If the COA now says they can provide shuttles to 1610 Main- promised as a fix in the FAQ flyer-because there won't be enough parking space at that location, why can't they do the same at the Community Center? The Community Center is underutilized during week days when children are at school and most COA activities take place. This isn't a space problem- it's a "poor scheduling" problem.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 09:54:17
This is serious. I just don't understand why Park & Rec can't work with the COA to have some joint programming in the Community Center. It would be a way to reduce the size of the new building. With town meeting coming this Saturday, there's a good possibility that the property purchase will get a 2/3 vote. If that happens, then I predict it'll most likely pass in May. We'll wind up with an 11,000 sf COA on top of the 27,000 sf Community Center. All this for a town of 6,000 people. I think we can do better.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 09:03:04
Debbie, People will be able to exit the former Stagg property as soon as they get the new round a bouts in there! Its funny how a simple comment made at a party can stir up so much dust.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 08:36:56
Judy- Also, with regard to your concern about "downtown Chatham", I suggest that you check out the Community Center calendar for last July and August. Some offerings on various days up to 2:00 besides Summer Rec, which is 8-1: senior lite fitness, Barre class, zumba, line dancing, yoga, two private card games and meetings for Chatham Harwich Newcomers, Chatham Chamber, Merchants Association, Orpheum Theatre Board and several Town committees including Summer Resident Taxpayers. Apparently none of these participants are concerned about traffic.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/29/2019 - 07:17:53
I'm compelled to add one more point about downtown Chatham. It seems that people have no problem coming from Chatham and elsewhere to get their children to and from the summer rec program at the Community Center. So I guess summer traffic can't that big of an issue.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 21:44:18
If the argument is that regionalizing is the solution, maybe I'll have to vote for 1610 Main Street.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 21:26:52
Debbie- your argument makes no sense if you support using the Community Center. Downtown Chatham in the summertime . Need I say more?
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 21:24:49
I'd like someone to let me know of another regional setup for a COA. I'm unaware of any. Try to imagine elderly drivers negotiating Route 137 in and out of the Stagg property. Not a pretty picture. I could never support that option.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 21:17:06
We get it, we get it, was the standard line to Elaine by the BOS during that last updated meeting about the pier-no they did not get it! Nor did they get it about the gas mains, the bridge, etc and now the COA. Elaine, you are so overwhelming bright concerning township actions and expenses, whether it was in the earlier days with your presentation about sewer facts or into today about the COA. However, the tone you use could be a bit softer, no? Through out the years, I have observed you at times, out there all by yourself. Moral courage- is a commodity you rarely find-you got it!

Judy P, you have single handedly transformed this site bringing new ideas with rational applications of new hope. Judy, your scrutinization of the Chatham BOS, critic or otherwise brings to the forefront a level of support that all governments can use whether they realize it or not. You should feel very proud of your efforts, especially over the last 6 months.

Jon Hallgren, you clearly are a guy of when you see something, say something, a trait that many do not have. I am not sure why you fall out on some of the Chatham Township positions, but what I am sure is that you work very hard to the goals you believe in. Elaine, I am hoping you do not use the lens of being defensive/combative, questioning motives/integrity of anyone challenging town management as being Weird or out of the ordinary in your evaluation of Jon. I kind of hoping you would see it from the point of view of Jon protecting his own identity, integrity and pride, rather than in any attack mode-Jon is not like that! Saffice it to say Jon, your originality in evaluating presentation goes way beyond most folks capabilities.

A belated Merry Christmas to all and of course a Happy New Year.

Alan Wirsul
USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 20:16:00
What people may not realize is that the $11 million+ Town Meeting appropriated for waterfront projects for the Fish Pier,Trap Dock,and South Jog hasn't hit the tax rate yet. Nor has the $30 million for the next sewering phase, or the $4.5 mil+ that's on deck for the Transfer Station(that's under the radar), or the $9 mil for the COA- all within the next 5 years when the bills come due-just to name a few. We are in for a rude awakening when those on fixed incomes look at their tax bills in the near future. There's absolutely no fiscal restraint.The argument that our tax rate is low is specious. A $300,000 home somewhere else is $600,000 in Chatham so we pay twice as much in taxes on that home-despite the "low tax rate". A Town of 6000 simply cannot afford what a Town of 30,000 can. Regionalization of services should be on the table.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 19:49:47
If the BOS and the school committees voted to regionalize the schools there's no reason why they can't regionalize the COA. More services, more programs, better choices all around. Everyone could learn to play nicely with others. Perfect solution.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 17:46:52
I agree with everyone who is against 1610 Main St. I watched the BOS meeting and felt that Anne Timpson was being rushed through her questions. Someone made a comment about regionalizing with Harwich to use the empty Stagg building. What a great idea!
Jan S
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 17:32:31
Up late John looking for a mistake? That's why few contribute about substantive matters on this site. Being defensive/combative, questioning motives/integrity of anyone challenging town management is weird. By your own rules you should probably be suspending yourself. Your superficial "research" is wrong-a disservice to readers- so I'll reluctantly respond. Critical reading is important.I didn't say "roadway". I said "paved surface" will be 60' -the width of the state ROW-travel lanes/bike lanes/multipurpose paths on both sides. And it's ALL going to be paved.That's not in dispute by anyone but you. Seniors will cross it by car or on foot. I don't live in West Chatham and will never use the COA. But I do care about the safety of those who will. I deal only in facts that lead to conclusions. I expect due diligence- that government/elected officials/consultants be truthful with and serve the public at large who foot the bills- and do their jobs right. Pretty low bar I think.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 11:14:35
Elaine: Not sure HOW you created in your comments the two+ occurrences of a x'A0' which is defined in ASCII tables as a 'non-breaking space' but that's what blocked your post because it's a non-printable character. But I took your most recent of the three attempts and removed just those two invalid bytes and will post it next.
J Hallgren (as Moderator)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 11:13:41
Elaine: It's not only a word table (which I won't reveal but it's words that most everyone would consider offensive OR indicative of spam) but other items like some special characters (like Word quote marks) that can result when using cut/paste from other documents, and such so I'd need to look at data logs to see what error code I can find to narrow it down. I had created all those filters to stop the spam that was creeping in, and NOT to block any legit posts but it can sometimes happen, and has even happened to ME! When I find reason, I may be able to tweak post to make it work if very minor thing like a quote mark and/or notify you via email.
J Hallgren (as Moderator)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 10:25:25
John. I have tried to respond to your comments about me and keep getting the message "Your entry contains text that is NOT permitted". Can you give us the list of words that you find offensive so I can respond?
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 09:42:15
Emily, I do neither in most all cases BUT when presented with 100% false "facts" that are being used to promote a certain viewpoint that I may disagree with, I will do my part like any good citizen/taxpayer should to dispute/disprove those. I know I'm not always right but until I'm provided non-biased proof of error, I will stand by my research.

Here's one blatant example of a 100% false "fact" from same Chronicle item: "encouraging seniors to cross Route 28 (which will be 60 feet of paved surface when the corridor construction is complete)" -- In fact, the paved section of roadway abutting 1610 Main is currently only 38'-40' according to the WCR 606596 plans, sheet 9, and the new actual paved roadway in that area will be only 32' from curb to curb. The entire Right-of-Way is 60' there but that's not all paved now, nor will it ever be.

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Sat 12/28/2019 - 02:05:14
May be the only person in the USA who has never watched a football game in person. However, I do use the analogy while volunteering at Old Harbor Station that the Lyle Gun used by the Life-Saving Service can shoot a line 300 yards, equivalent to 3 football fields.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 17:33:10
But John, please get over always having to be right and have the last word!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 17:24:47
John -why don't you watch the BOS meeting from Monday night. As I mentioned earlier, Anne Timpson had a list of problems with the lot. Not one selectman could answer her questions because they knew she was right. This lot simply isn't feasible for multiple reasons - parking be one of them.
WChatham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 15:08:11
It wasn't that much work - and a plan to that level of detail as presented by the architect is NOT just for illustration but was done by them to determine if project will fit in the defined space. I doubt there's any filed surveyor's map that shows ANY of the proposed work at this time so that's not a viable source of information without that data overlaid.
And in order to have the rear parking spaces be as far as you claim from building would require an additional 7-9+ spaces in each of the aisles because spaces are not 12-15'+ wide (except for handicapped ones).

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 14:28:19
You sure make a lot of work for yourself John. To answer your question: No the aerial photo from the powerpoint presentation was for illustrative purposes only. My numbers come from the Certified Stamped Surveyor's map filed with Barnstable County and the Stamped Certified Surveyor topographical map. I think I'll go with them rather than your method, which I freely admit I didn't try and figure out.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 13:31:52
Elaine: So an aerial photo isn't to scale? I took the image from page 10 of the Nov 4 BOS Powerpoint which includes the setbacks and property lines, screenshot it, rotated it -5.25 degrees to get right property line vertical and also -15.5 degrees to get left property line vertical. Then using a highly accurate screen ruler software, measured various distances in picas. For shorter distances, this method is quite accurate but not as precise at longer ones.

What I will agree with you is: 25' setback from Rt 28 -and- 60' from pond seems reasonable as does 70' for building depth BUT ONLY on the west/left side as the east/right side is no more than around 57' at most.
But where is disagree totally is the lot depth as I couldn't get more than approx 377' on west side and 353' on right. On the right side, I get 100' wetlands + 131' parking (14.5 spaces @ 9' each, typical width) + 40' gap from last parking space to bldg + 57' bldg + 25' front setback which adds up to 353'.
There's 17 spaces shown on right side so that's 153' + 40' gap is 193' to back side of closest rear space. Add maybe 20' to avoid the islands and you're still only 213' to a rear space. Obviously the distance to each space varies but the statement that rear spaces are 277' from entrance is mathematically untrue.

Oh, the comparison between annex and 1610 re slope of drive was verified as valid by architect and others because it's a very similar drop of one story from roadway to rear entrance of building with a level area near roadway for queue.

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 12:22:15
You are absolutely correct. Got my feet and yards mixed up. Chatham never had a football team, but I should have known better. According to Dave Ryder, a boy died from a football injury back in the 20's and the school never pursued having a team after that.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 10:42:05
Hi Richard, regulation football playing field is 300 ft (100 yds) long
Harwich, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 10:13:47
Never played football and don't watch it on TV, but I thought the playing field itself was 100 feet long. The stadium might cover 200 feet.
Crossing Route 28 from the medical building? Can't be a serious suggestion.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 09:50:54
Once again John I hesitate to engage you because it's a rabbit hole. I don't make statements I can't back up. You calling them scare tactics is putting your head in the sand telling us to just trust the Town on this.There are way too many inconsistencies and unanswered questions to do that. I don't know how or why you "scaled the diagram "because it's not to scale. Do the math. The lot's 432 ft deep. With a 60 ft setback from the pond, (where the rear parking spaces will be) a 25' setback from Rt 28, and a 70ft deep building(footprint-just under 7000 sq ft) the rear parking spaces are 277 ft from the main entrance. That is a FACT - not a scare tactic.That's 23 ft short of a football field.Try walking that on a cold windy day. 1/3 of this narrow and tapered lot is a 49 ft drop off to the pond (5 stories) that needs fill and a retaining wall. And its 30-40 spaces short of what they said they needed. It's a terrible location and lot for any municipal building let alone for elderly people. And to compare George Ryder Rd to Rt 28 is absurd and a "flawed comparison".
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/27/2019 - 06:42:34
Things that bother me about this COA thing are scare tactics that aren't based totally on accurate facts, or using flawed comparisons. For ex, saw this sentence in LTE of Chronicle: "So we're left with a building with a lower level rear entrance down a sloping drive, dangerous for entry and exit, especially in bad weather." -- If that author feels that way, then maybe they should never attend meetings in the downstairs meeting rooms at Annex because a very similar situation/slope exists, yet no one has had an issue with that that I know of.

Then this phrase: "(rear spaces will be almost a football field from the main entrance)" -- I scaled the diagram and it appears to be about 200 ft at most and similar to distance from OSJL handicapped spaces to left rear corner of store if one was able to walk a straight line. Where's the other 100 ft coming from?

And yes, I intentionally didn't mention author as I'm just pointing out that opponents are using flawed techniques to try and stop this.

J. Hallgren (as user)
Clearwater, FL USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 22:41:00
I've been given a copy of the "fact sheet" which was passed out. It's a 4 page Q&A produced by the "Office of Selectmen". It's also on the Town's Project webpage. Nine more days.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 21:54:52
Alice - I think they mentioned something at the meeting the other night about displaying information. If they are trying to slant voters opinions - that's a different story. Debbie - as you've seen here - there are several alternatives that have been discussed. This particular parcel at 1610 Main is not suitable for a COA - as Anne Timpson pointed out on Monday to deaf ears. A committee needs to be formed to come up with other ideas that will be suitable to two thirds of the voters. I do agree the Community Center could be utilized during the day for some programs and the current building will more than suffice. Others seem to want the current building for affordable housing and that's going to be a hard sell.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 15:59:19
It's probably the FAQ sheet which is on the Town website under "Projects".
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 15:52:09
Just got a call from a friend who told us that the gate guards at the dump are handing out "fact Sheets" on 1610 Main. SOOOO The town is paying employees to hand out their propaganda? Does this seem right? Doesn't seem right to us!!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 15:26:21
For me, scheduling some programs in the Community Center is very realistic. I think voters will be more likely to support 1610 Main St. if they believe there is no realistic alternative. So "where it will be", including realistic alternatives, is the most critical issue. The proponents will certainly argue that there are no alternatives. I hope that gets challenged, but not with an argument for regionalizing.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 15:24:08
Debbie - that idea is no more unrealistic than using the Community Center. Once again, the issue is not where it will be. It's to vote down the purchase of 1610 Main Street because it's not a suitable location.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 15:02:48
I hope that nobody promulgates regionalizing with Harwich in order to solve our COA dilemma. Harwich COA has full access to their 32,000 square foot Community Center, so it's highly unlikely that Harwich taxpayers would be interested in buying a share of the auto dealership. The idea is so unrealistic that bringing it up will only serve to help supporters of COA siting at 1610 Main Street.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/26/2019 - 08:00:35
What is it with this rain cycle? Rains for a day or two, dries out, then rains again. According to the CC Times, we have had 50 inches of rain so far this year. Ten inches above normal. Get out your yardstick to see just how much rain that is. No wonder the earliest Native Americans liked this place. But, I think these elevated rainfalls are more that they might have experienced.
Looked at the Chatham First Night programs. Nice lineup. To all who go: enjoy! I will be asleep while you freeze your butts off.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 12/25/2019 - 17:16:51
A very Merry Christmas to all my Chat-M-Room friends!
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 18:40:37
Come on everybody......get on board with Judy and Anne Timpson's facts and questions! This upcoming vote will cost you dearly if you do not understand how you have been fooled and led down the garden path. The 1610 site is absolutely unacceptable! Kick it to the curb and start over! Oh, yes......Merry Christmas.....and be sure to vote NO, if you truly love and treasure our Town, our ancestors and the native ways of doing business here.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 16:22:47
Debbie - there are other choices - regionalize as suggested earlier today OR the Chamber of Commerce Building in South Chatham as well. We all pretty much agree that 1610 doesn't cut it and we don't need to be bullied into choosing that location when there are other options that folks are too lazy to pursue. The issue right here and right now is to vote NO at Town Meeting and worry about another location later.
WChatham, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 15:45:07
Two COA choices: Stony Hill or Community Center. Take your pick. Busing to either one for overflow. Merry Christmas to all!
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 14:31:47
I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact something needs to be done. What we don't agree with is the level of deceit the COA and the "Friends" have gone to in order to accomplish this. They have misrepresented attendance numbers, sanding the building in the winter in order to send a scare tactic post card, scared everyone into believing 1610 is the last piece of property in town that is suitable. Oh, and by the way - the COA is being PAINTED today. What a waste of money. They have also unsuccessfully tried to make tax payers believe they need this huge building for all their programs that are minimally attended. The list goes on and on and on. This is a whole new level of low - watching seniors lie about this stuff. It is shocking. These are not the kind, sweet elderly folks like my grandparents that I grew up with. These are seriously deceptive individuals whose ideas are coming from other states and towns. You know there's a problem when the appraisal is done by the owner's associates. Pull up last nights BOS meeting and watch. Anne Timpson asked very sincere, direct questions and was met with silence. She had a list of every single issue that is wrong with this parcel and asked for transparency from Jill and the others. The BOS sat there like mutes. They knew she was right. Pull up the meeting if anyone questions this. It is time for us to take back OUR town and stop this ridiculous spending.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 10:45:07
Compare to Falmouth by checking out their just completed Senior Center. Building Committee cap of $9.7 million. (Maybe 1610 Main St. will be even more than that.) Falmouth's population is 31,531 with 10,857 60+ aged seniors. (Chatham has about 3000 60+ seniors.) I must be missing something.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 09:15:18
We were at a party last night and the subject of the COA came up. One person suggested we should think about regionalizing our COA with Harwich like we did with the schools. We could buy the former Stagg Chevy place on 137 in East Harwich and simple renovate the building. PLENTY of room for parking, Fire Dept across the street as well as the Compass Day Program [medical] also across the street. Stop and Shop as well as eateries nearby. The people who use the new COA would get to meet LOTS of new friends!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 12/24/2019 - 08:38:16
I believe I heard that Atty Costello weighed in on the Feasibility Study also being crammed down our throats. Most likely that's the Executive Session I would imagine. It could be an interesting meeting afterwards . This whole thing has been anything but transparent. I can't believe they think the general public isn't aware of this. People are furious. I hope they vote NO .To have a meeting two days before Christmas shows you how low they will go.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/23/2019 - 17:28:34
Interesting agenda for tonight's selectmen's meeting. First an executive session to discuss the purchase of 1610 main and then later in the agenda the selectmen will answer questions they've received from the public surrounding the COA site. Of course no one will be there to counter whatever they say since it's two days before Christmas.
USA - Mon 12/23/2019 - 14:17:30
I found out Parks & Recreation is responsible for replacing the flags. Chief Pawlina was copied on an email so hopefully that flag and others will be replaced soon.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/23/2019 - 08:39:12
Thanks Ben, but I feel it is too late to try. Another problem back then was I had extra large feet, so Ben Shufro would have had to order in a pair of skates for me.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 22:01:02
Ben, thanks for your comment about my mom. It is indeed a hard time of year when you realize they are here no more. Merry Christmas to all as well .
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 21:01:20
Richard Never too late to ice skate for the first time I will find a way to get you some ice skates if you are willing to try out your inner Bobby Orr
Judy P Good suggestion on the town flag although some tattered flags have more meaning than the new ones - out here the local VFW replaces the town flag and properly disposes of all old flags - the vets take great pride in this mission - just an idea you might consider for Chatham
Missing your mom and Chowdahman as well as all the other members we've lost - this time of year does that to me
Merry Christmas to all!

Ben H
USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 20:08:46
As so many winter holiday seasons on the Outer Cape are bereft of snow, here we are with another less than snowy Christmas. When there was ice on the Black Pond, I didn't have the money to buy skates at Puritan Clothing. When I had saved some money from caddying or mowing lawns, there was no ice that year. Consequently, I have never skated on ice, anywhere. Skiing? Forget it. That was for the more well-to-do families.

We have learned that a White Christmas is not essential to what can turn out to be a joyous one.

Merry Christmas to all Chat.M.Roomers!

Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 17:30:49
I was just at the Police Station selling something I posted online. I was shocked/embarrassed to notice their U.S. flag was shredded and flying. How totally disrespectful is this? Town facilities people have time to scrape and power wash the COA building but no one can be bothered to replace our flag? Totally disgraceful and disrespectful.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 13:20:46
Drove by the COA yesterday taking photos from the truck. Many people were slowing down and looking and some beeped. :) So someone remind me again why this place has been condemned by many and they need something new? Just curious.
Cynthia Moore <>
South Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/22/2019 - 08:38:25
Judy Hanlon is the individual most likely behind this. She gets up and speaks at most of the meetings I've seen. She projects the "we are entitled to this new COA" attitude every time she speaks. Dean Nicastro asked her point blank if they would pledge the same amount of money for 1610 as they had previously said they would for Middle Road ( I believe it was $250K) and she said she wasn't able to answer at that time. That was the last I heard of that. They (Friends) can put up money for the Orpheum to show the COA plight, and they can waste money on that deceptive mailer and the COA building can be scraped and power washed in December. Yet they seem to be unable to even correct the errors on their own website as Emily pointed out. If these are just a few examples of them and the COA collaborating - this is pretty pathetic.
WChatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 14:43:30
I found the list of names of the "friends" but It is sadly out of date! Betsy Stevens and Bernie Pfeifer no longer live in Chatham. Their stated mission is publicity and funding for the COA, but I am offended by these tactics.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 12:54:04
Alice-The list is on the Council on Aging Website.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 11:31:14
Elaine, I got that but am looking for names of real people. Not people hiding behind a logo.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 11:16:29
Alice- The card said "Paid for by the Friends of the Council On Aging"
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 11:06:17
Any way to find out exactly who sent these cards?
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 09:37:35
Also note that the shingles were power washed and look like they are ready to all fall off in a big wind. I think they are trying to make building look as bad as possible.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/20/2019 - 07:56:02
So why would the Town decide to remove the shutters and sand the clapboard to the bare wood -to be exposed to the elements until Spring -knowing you can't prime and paint below 40 degrees? The timing is very odd. Either it was negligence by the facilities manager, or it was done to get a great photo to send to voter households "Our seniors deserve better"-which clearly implies this is the naturally deteriorated condition of the COA. It's insulting to the intelligence of voters and I think reflects poorly on the senders.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/19/2019 - 21:11:35
We got the same postcard. That is NOT the picture the Town shows on their commercial on Ch 18. That pic shows a beautiful white building with the flag flying!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/19/2019 - 15:43:30
Had to laugh when I got my mail today. I received a VOTE YES card from "The Friends on the Council on Aging - showing the building all scraped and ready to be painted. Caption says "Our Seniors Deserve Better". Talk about misleading. These people stop at nothing. Who scrapes and paints a building in the winter ??? What a deceptive misleading ad.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/19/2019 - 10:21:09
I will revisit the Orleans COA to answer the questions raised. Never had been there before. Is there a section on Trip Advisor for rating/commenting on these places?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 12/18/2019 - 16:44:35
Why is everyone so worried about what they can/cannot house? I would think they'd better find a location that is acceptable to everyone first. That certainly isn't 1610. There's a letter in today's Chronicle about the "deplorable" condition the current COA building. Whose fault would that be? The Town has never maintained any of it's buildings or parks. Why would we fork out enough money for a COA comparable to the cost of a house on Morris Island when this has been proven again and again. Until a process is put into place with exactly what is needed versus "wanted" , there will be no resolution to this.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/18/2019 - 13:42:52
Richard- In round numbers, Orleans COA is about the same size as the existing Chatham COA (8000sf). Orleans has an Adult Day Care wing. Chatham proposal is for 10,000 sf with no Day Care. How does Orleans do it? Do they just have that one big room that you were in for dining and programs?
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/18/2019 - 08:55:51
Was at the Orleans COA building this afternoon for an Annual Meeting of the Orleans Historical Society. Very nice. Not sure if this is what the Chatham COA are proposing. The Orleans kitchen does support Meals on Wheels. Will the Chatham COA do the same? Or is some other entity in Chatham doing that?
There is a real need here to compare apples to tangerines.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 12/17/2019 - 19:00:34
My point, exactly!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 20:25:41
Emily, The young folks haven't been out in force on this issue since they succeeded in getting the Community Center off the table.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 20:15:44
Debbie, I was referring to the rallying force the young people put forth to prevent an addition to the Community Center from being considered for the COA. The same tactics could be rallied from the seniors (not in Florida) to push forward the 1610 property. Those of us who see the folly of such a location, might need some help from the young folks! It is not what's "in it for them", it is prudent civic duty to prevent a stupid spending of our tax dollars, which in the long run affects everyone.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 19:31:32
Jared - thank you for clarifying this. This was my misunderstanding. Am I missing something here where they voted it was not a conflict of interest? An owner of a marina being allowed to vote on moorings?
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 19:30:33
David Oppenheim is a member of the Waterways Committee. It was my understanding that he was before the Selectmen tonight regarding whether it was a conflict of interest for him to discuss moorings while being owner of the Yacht Basin and holder of several moorings. The majority of the board voted that it would not be improper for him to discuss moorings.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 19:24:00
If anyone wants to see how unscrupulous the majority of BOS acts - watch Selectman Dykens right now agreeing to allow Mr Oppenheim on a waterways committee . An owner of a marina . No conflict there huh ? Especially with the moorings issue ? Nicastro and Metters are the only two with any moral compass . Thank you Mr Nicastro and thank you mr Metters for your denial of this . Mr Oppenheim believes he has no conflict of interest. Not l sure how the vote turned out - because it wasn't stated from the Chairnan but from the smile on Mr Oppenheims face it may have passed Think of the words "integrity and ethics " and no more needs to be said.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 18:34:55
Good questions. No one could even be bothered to respond to my question from yesterday .
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 18:06:24
OK: Let's assume that the money ( x$millions) to be spent on a new COA building, wherever, was instead distributed to those in Chatham over 75, and some distributed to those families under 30.
How would that fly?
The tax increase to these folks are not even mentioned in what the cost would be.

To the Chatham COA folks: What problem are you trying to resolve? Who has or are being left out of your programs due to the supposed inadequacy of your present site?

I only pose this question for fellow ChatM Room contributors to ask in their deliberations.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 17:47:09
Debbie -it's fairly obvious - it will be another empty building like the one in use now. No cars at all there at 2:30 today and 8 this morning at 10:30. Several of my friends have mentioned - for the amount big money bring requested the tax payers can buy a house on Morris Island or Shore Road. Let that sink in. That's how ridiculous this is.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 17:23:40
How would parents of school age kids be hurt? I think they favor buying 1610 Main St..
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 15:37:34
Alert! Never underestimate "gray" power. If I could, I would go door to door getting parents of school age kids, working Moms and Dads to vote this COA land grab of 1610 DOWN!! It will hurt everyone in the long run, with WAY too many questions unanswered, and costs are guaranteed to escalate. Our elected officials have let us down....they are obviously tired of the effort and just want it over. Shame on them!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 15:16:42
Perhaps it'll be mainly stakeholders that are motivated to show up at town meeting on a Saturday at 1:00. If so, the outcome is predictable.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 13:06:29
Tried to watch but only was able to view the nominations. None of the other agenda items would open. Not sure why but I've had issues in the past trying to view meetings. If the dimensions of a piece of infrastructure are not known, how are they calculated into the total costs? Sounds like the FinCom was on their toes.
USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 12:49:40
I don't know, but it seems those against the purchase of 1610 have their work cut out for them. The usual time of town meeting was changed, COA is offering rides to town meeting, and the Chatham365 is urging support. I think the latter group just wants to show support for seniors "aging in place" - a very worthy goal and something we all want, but that doesn't make this particular property the right choice for the COA building. I don't think anyone is against the COA getting a new or improved building.
USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 12:42:19
For those who do not have the time to view the Finance Comm Meeting on 1610 Main St; you do need to know they voted 5 to 2 to NOT support buying this property. Please take the time to watch it. They asked the same hard questions people have been asking here. The questions about the retaining wall in the back are quite upsetting, especially when you consider the height and how they will build it. The Town is saying they do not know how to build the wall and how high it will be at this time.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 09:04:25
Debbie - I believe they are projected to go up 4% a year and then there are contingency fees added to that of about 30% . As the project moves forward that fee is adjusted. That's not the point of this discussion though. The town leaders have failed to perform their due diligence on this purchase . They expect the taxpayers to buy into their less than honest presentation on a parcel of land that is far from satisfactory. This is untenable. It's time for a clear message to be sent to them and others that we are not going to be bullied into this purchase just to "get it done". Vote NO on the purchase of 1610.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/16/2019 - 05:53:17
I recently heard that the actual oldest house in Chatham has been under a demo delay for over a year. Can anyone tell me if this is true? I thought the Atwood house was the oldest but a very reliable source told me that there exists a structure that is still in existence as a residence and it was occupied by the son of Chatham's founder William Nickerson? If it is true does not Chatham have a mechanism to fund saving such structures? Im guessing Im wrong because no way would the town allow that to happen. Does anyone know about this?
Kathy C.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 21:36:54
What were the figures that you were given on the escalated construction costs and why were they inaccurate?
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 20:32:47
Earl -,that is another serious issue with 1610. I can't believe these costs are estimates only and they do not have actual figures for 1610. Once again, the processes have not been put in place. There are so many "associated" costs that haven't been defined. Another tidbit previously mentioned is that the conservation folks haven't been consulted yet. In deference to Debbie's post earlier - there are escalated construction costs; however the figures we were given were not accurate -,they were outrageous and nothing but scare tactics. I would welcome ONE person to give a cohesive argument why this property should be purchased with everything here that is fact based.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 18:40:31
Richard- They changed the name to Men's Club. And there is a Women's Club.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 16:50:27
The problem with 1610 is the required retaining wall and fill in the back of the property. The town does not have a firm quote to build the wall and fill . In CT an 300ft long 8ft high retaining and fill required to build 2 small buildings. It was estimated to cost $400,000 and now is up to $550,000 and counting. The wall is not built from the slope side of the wall but from the back side. The back side is the conservation land. Heavy equipment on conservation land ??
Ct, USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 16:49:51
I have given talks to the Retired Men's Club in the Community Center, so the elderly men do know how to get there. My next talk will be on the Life-Saving Stations of Cape Cod. I made a comment at the last presentation that they should/could include women in their group and change the name to The Chatham Retired Persons Club. They were lamenting the fact that they were losing members. Hello?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 16:24:41
Construction escalation cost is a fact of life that must be factored into any building project. I favor a small addition to the Community Center. As a last resort I could support a smaller than 10,000 sf. new building on the existing site. It would have to allow for some programming in the Community Center.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 12:20:44
As others have said, the escalation in price is not true - it's their scare tactics. There's plenty of parking now as we have documented. Sorry but that's not a strong enough argument for me and others to vote for a different location. I can't seem to get over one lady saying " The police have their new building, the fire dept has theirs , and now it's time for ours. Would it be nice? Is it a necessity? Look at the comments from my brother and Mr Ryder. It's time for folks to be fiscally prudent and that doesn't mean we should build a new building because we can.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 12:03:07
$6.6 million plus 5% construction escalation per year from 10/19 for a needed 10,150 sf structure. Maximum 44 parking spaces if no abutter agreements for sharing.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 11:51:28
Debbie - what don't you like about the current location? Did I miss something ?
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 10:04:01
I'll conclude with this: I cannot support either a demo/rebuild at the existing site or building new at 1610 Main St.. In either case, the building would need to be quite a bit larger than that which could be built at the CC. Ergo, a lot more expensive.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 09:47:47
If the Finance Committee doesn't back this and it's not unanimous with the BOS (and who knows how they're feeling this week) I don't see it passing in January.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 09:31:33
Sorry last sentence should read contact many other property owners.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 09:27:55
Less than 5% of the senior population utilize the current site now and numbers are declining as generations age out. I believe from previous conversations on here folks my age and younger won't be utilizing this in the future. Chatham has a bad habit of building oversized buildings. No need to waste tax payers money by purchasing 1610 when the processes for this have not been put into place. Refer to previous comments. So many things are wrong with this particular purchase. It is my own personal belief as well the selectman did not put any effort into looking/contacting property many property owners for other alternatives.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 09:26:47
But Judy, only one Selectman supported that option. And it was to demolish the building, not just bring it up to code. I can't make the argument that 54 parking spaces will suffice in the long run. If that were the case, then 1610 Main St. might be more acceptable.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 09:01:17
Yes - I am definitely for the current building. We own it, re-do it and let's be done with this. Staff can start look for places to house programs now. It's not like they're relocating the Fire Dept - it can be done. The CC can hold programs along with churches, the Masonic Hall etc.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 08:48:42
Judy- What would you support that could get a 2/3 vote? Should the existing building simply be brought up to code?
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 08:27:53
Debbie - I know you are for the CC but I think every selectmen is against that. I think the current building should be used. I also believe paying these architects and design engineering firms is a horrible waste of our money - having them continually redoing these plans. We really need to stop this. Look at Amy's post and the money already spent - for nothing. This is just outrageous. I hope voters are beginning to be as fed up as the rest of us.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 08:23:16
I'm betting that building small at the CC would cost less than half of what's being sought for 1610 Main St.. Scheduling programs properly should solve most potential problems.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 08:15:53
I have been compiling a spreadsheet for the past several weeks on the number of cars in the current lot on different days and different times. With the exception of Thursday's the average number of cars is 5-7 on the other days and times. Folks that utilize this Chatroom have given me the data for this. Thursday's programs could be rescheduled to other days to accommodate parking. Friday afternoons no one is ever there. It must be nice to have a schedule where you have a long weekend every week and have the flexibility not to run programs. Scheduling is their main problem with regard to overflow parking. We've been saying that for months. Why can't the men's club use the Community Center on Thursday's? The COA folks know their schedule is flawed and we know this. I hope others watch the meeting as Amy did and just vote NO at the special town meeting.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 07:43:33
From the beginning, COA consultants used parking for 80 vehicles as the need. Sites were summarily dismissed because they didn't meet this threshold. Now we see that 1610 Main St. provides parking for only 54 vehicles. One of the options for the Community Center site would have provided parking for 212 vehicles (103 over existing). But the ball field had to go. Unfortunately, the consultants used the same sized COA model for the Community Center as they used for all the other sites. Maybe, if a smaller model had been used for that site, the Little League ball field could be retained. I have to believe that option would allow for lots more than 54 COA vehicles.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 07:24:35
Where to start? Just watched finance committee meeting. From what I heard, we have already spent $200,000 on consultants and feasibility studies with nothing to show for it, the town wants us to spend another $130,000 on a feasibility study for 1610 Main, if that passes at the special town meeting. None of these consultants thus far have given us any rendering we can use in the future. (It would appear that the consultants are making a lot of money off of the town of chatham-as an aside-why do we have so many consultants and no reduction in staff?) Meanwhile, council on aging personnel stated that we shouldn't worry about the parking across the street aspect of this project because it would so rarely be needed and that we could use bussing for overflow events. Can't the same be said then of the current site or any site that has been tossed aside due to lack of parking?
I applaud those members of the finance committee who voted against the acquisition article. You've done your job and done it well!!

USA - Sun 12/15/2019 - 06:45:34
Has there been any official updates on the Fish Pier?
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 16:10:49
One wonders how the members of the BOS got voted into office in the first place. If voters don't vote them out, they have only themselves to blame.
Harwich, MA USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 12:29:47
Exactly - this is why so many folks are outraged over this. My list below barely scratches the surfaces of what else hasn't been done for the process. If nothing else, I hope this one flawed example of a project shows tax payers how these folks in charge of our money need to be watched every single step of the way. Look at the fish pier, look at the roadway in West Chatham, how about the left hand corner of Route 28 and Job Lot where they can't even seem to be able to fix the huge puddle? Folks need to pay careful attention to these projects. The way they are being handled is totally not acceptable. We should be embarrassed at the fact these are the folks we trusted that would watch out for us. It is disgraceful what is going on in our town .
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 11:09:58
hence, "outcome" based, versus "process" based.
USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 09:16:17
I neglected to mention - for anyone that is questioning this - please go to, meeting videos, on demand archive and pull up the Finance Committee meeting of Dec. 12th. After watching the outstanding questions by the Finance Committee on spending our tax payers dollars, there is NO reason for anyone in their right mind to vote on this purchase with this many unanswered questions and the amount of tax payers dollars involved. The COA project needs to rebuild their current site and this needs to be put to bed on January 4th.

Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 08:57:41
What the two of you don't seem to understand is that while you are both absolutely correct - our Town Manager and BOS are trying to push this thru before municipal zoning can be approved, no contingency plans are in place, there's not enough parking, they haven't approached abutters as to permission for overflow, conservation committee hasn't weighed in, the Town Manager and BOS REFUSE to release the appraisal citing MGL. This is just a small list of why folks won't pass this. They're pushing a special town meeting in hopes that folks drink the kool aid. This is absolutely outrageous for them to expect approval on this when they haven't even begun to do their job.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 08:22:08
Richard, you hit it!! I've stayed neutral in all this as I don't have all the facts. But you hit the nail on the head. I'm a "process guy." It appears that the process is lacking in some of these decisions. For instance, at one point I was an integral player in a small unit with over a 1/3d Billion (with a "B") budget. That didn't mean we went out and did/got everything we wanted. In the military you develop an operational needs statement (ONS). The "what" it is you want or the capability you need to develop. Then, you push it through the system to "validate" that "need." Is it really a need? Is it a "nice to have" item? Once the need has been validated, you determine the capability requirements: maximum and minimum. In a perfect world - what capability would be great to have? In a limited world with an austere budget, what is the minimum that would accomplish the mission?
All these decisions need to be part of the process. Once that is done, you turn to funding mechanisms. Is it in our budget? can we carry it to another year? Must we "program? for it (enter the congressional budgetary process). For the town, there'd be bond issues; alternative financing; tax implications. Once all these factors have been addressed, you can start to shape the outcome. The baseline question is always: "What itch needs scratching?"
I would imagine the Town goes through this process but from the comments here it more sounds like the entire issue is "outcome" oriented. What I mean by that is that certain people decide what it is they want and then they drive towards that particular outcome (outcome bias).
The fundamental rule in all of this - to those of us still statutorily bound by fiscal ethics - is to be a prudent steward of the taxpayer dollar. Hopefully some folks on the various boards will address these concerns as these projects are dividing the town rather than uni

USA - Sat 12/14/2019 - 07:54:31
As I have said before, compare their purported mission with how they are not able to meet it using the existing building..
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 12/13/2019 - 20:16:55
Well, WEll, WEll. Jill Goldsmith and her team of actors rolled into the Finance Meeting last night like an old time Snake Oil Show. "Take just one drink of my magic elixir and all your worries about 1610 Main will go away"! Looks like the Finance Comm [and the rest of us] have had one too many swigs from that bottle. We are all still suffering from hangovers from the 28 and Fish pier projects as well as upcoming projects. They did not buy it and her frustration was quite visible at times!! They asked REAL questions that she could not answer. Her only solution was to "have another drink and you too will believe" PLEASE watch the meeting and see for yourself! People have stopped drinking Dr Bobs Fish Pier
Elixir too! About time! Too bad it has cost us so much money! Cant wait for Town Meeting!

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/13/2019 - 06:39:23
When 1610 gets voted down an ad hoc committee should be formed approved by the BOS to investigate all possible alternative sites. The committee could call on all town resources for information regarding alternative sites. Any taxpayer could recommend locations of interest to the committee. A final report could be presented to the BOS .
Southbury, CT USA - Thu 12/12/2019 - 19:57:52
Carole- that's an interesting suggestion! Much safer area than 1610. More than enough parking to hold their average daily rate of 8 cars/day.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/12/2019 - 05:51:13
I'd like to make a suggestion about the COA project. Since NEPizza will be moving out the end of the year and the organics market building has been empty for some time, I can envision a one story building connecting the two buildings at the back of the lot, leaving plenty of parking in front. The kitchen & dining room could be renovated, the market is a big room for various functions, and the new section could be offices, & smaller meeting rooms. It's closer to town, the road cuts are already in place and it's a better location. I don't know who owns it but it might be a solution for everyone.
Carole Miller <>
Harwich, MA USA - Wed 12/11/2019 - 21:04:55
Just to say, the Dubis family made concrete blocks for MANY of the existing Chatham homes. Probably using good sand from the proposed site of the PV array. Before poured foundations came in to vogue. Their concrete block making machinery is still extant on Stony Hill Road. Someone should interview the elder Bob Dubis soon to hear his recollections of how the blocks were made.
The Dubis family have contributed much to the Town of Chatham over the years.
That having been said, the project has to stand on its merits.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 12/11/2019 - 17:32:00
Did watch at least an hour of the meeting this morning. Yes, some good questions have been raised. It will be approved eventually when those questions have been answered. The abutters have been living near a sand pit for some time. Did they think the owners would not make the best use of the property eventually?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 12/11/2019 - 12:48:45
It sounds as though this is a 25 year lease deal. After watching this meeting I never in a million years would have thought things would be so complicated trying to outfit this parcel for a solar array. It's just unbelievable the hoops they are going to have to jump through to accomplish this. Less than six acres of trees will be destroyed. Not sure how this will end up playing out. I do feel bad for the abutters.
USA - Tue 12/10/2019 - 20:44:34
Richard - you may want to watch the meeting . The Planning Board has some excellent questions we all have about this. Pay attention to these comments along with what the abutters have to say. Perhaps this will help you understand the severity of this proposal.
USA - Tue 12/10/2019 - 19:44:52
If you don't own it, you have no say to whom it might be sold. Since when are solar panels so intrusive?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 12/10/2019 - 19:22:10
I was shocked to read today of the possible sale of the Dubis pit to be used for a solar project. There must be other ways this land can be used or to be left as is. I sure hope that something else can be done with this piece of Chatham.
Dave < >
USA - Mon 12/09/2019 - 21:20:41
Richard - Just curious - - you're from Eastham - why would you even ask that? Many of us in Chatham do not agree with what's going on in this town. If we can prevent this from being sold to an "outside"'entity - that's a small win.
USA - Mon 12/09/2019 - 20:12:32
Richard - many folks I have spoken to about this including myself are against the clearing of all the trees on the 15 acre parcel and destroying the natural environment. Other folks feel it should be used for affordable housing.
USA - Mon 12/09/2019 - 20:05:22
What benefit are you or the Town Of Chatham receiving now from this sand pit? The Dubis family is probably paying taxes, as will the new owners. I can't see how you would be harmed by the sale of this property to a CA entity.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 12/09/2019 - 18:51:41
I was told today that tomorrow's PB meeting includes a proposal by Next Grid of San Fran to purchase the Dubis sand pit to construct a solar array farm. Project will require clear cutting of nearly every tree on the 15 acre parcel. It will forever change a natural environment for the benefit of a major corporation with absolutely no benefit to the Town of Chatham or its residents. If this is indeed true, this is egregious beyond belief. Please attend this meeting if possible.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/09/2019 - 13:59:26
Bill - The majority of the current folks that utilize the COA want their own building and seem unwilling to share or compromise . That is why this issue is so contentious. If this vote fails they'll pretty much have exhausted their options with the Selectmen.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/08/2019 - 15:21:05
Bill P., I am a senior. I was at that meeting. I voted against regionalization. Many other seniors did as well. It was a very close vote.
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Sun 12/08/2019 - 14:53:39
How about a regional COA? Seniors had no issue voting for this for our kids.
Bill P
S.Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/08/2019 - 14:09:49
Bill P - You've probably never spent any time in that visitor center because I can tell you that even with the web, it's not unusual to have multiple people coming in there simultaneously for help on a summer day. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone has or uses a smart phone or other portable web device. And even those who do still want to ask questions and get answers from a knowledgeable staff member, ok?
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 12/07/2019 - 19:55:32
Hallelujah.....let's get the dinosaurs out of this room, too many right-fighters, too many gotta have the last word folks, a new voice for the new way all the tech stuff comes into Town. I like it.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Sat 12/07/2019 - 19:49:25
Their is no need for an information center anymore. Put up a website and give them an office at 283 George Ryder RD.
Bill P
USA - Sat 12/07/2019 - 18:40:54
Let me get this straight:
The present Chatham Visitor Center is at the foot/end of Route 137, where it meets with Route 28, correct? In a relatively small, but historic building.
Can anyone tell me the proposed sites for the new COA? I don't need a street number, I need what is the parcel close to. Which side of Route 28, West Chatham, South Chatham, downtown Chatham.

Has the possibility of hooking up with Broad Reach, using their facility for a fee, been explored?

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 12/07/2019 - 17:19:19
I drove to the visitor center yesterday in order to see for myself. I think this site should be evaluated for potential COA use.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/06/2019 - 08:26:53
John - I work right next door to that building. I beg to differ with your comments about a "significant slope". This is a very gradual slope and not a significant one. As I mentioned before, the front of the building can remain in tact. There is plenty of room out back for parking and a tasteful addition. This is a much better alternative for the COA than 1610 Main Street and a lot safer. This is a win-win situation with very minimal effort needed to be put into the building in town. It certainly wouldn't rise to the tune of 8-9 million total for both buildings. The location of the current visitors center leaves little to be desired - considering it's visibility. It is poorly marked and folks don't know where they're going. Many people during the summer pull into my workplace asking where the visitors center is. One drives by it before even noticing it. Folks would rather walk up to something like the downtown booth - or at least have a noticeable building to drive in to such as the Cumberland Farms. . The South Chatham Visitor's Center is just not a great location where it currently stands. The Cumberland Farms vacant building has been an eyesore for years. It's time to clean it up and use it.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/06/2019 - 08:07:39
John- So you're suggesting that Harwich and Orleans should have information centers near the Route 6 exits?
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 12/06/2019 - 06:37:19
Judy: Maybe the reason you think my comments are off-base is because you're not looking at it from the new visitor point of view as I am trying to, especially as I am in the hospitality business and deal with tourists who've never been here. Just like states have welcome/visitor centers at borders as you enter that state, having our main center/office closer to where majority of new visitors who are driving enter town makes more sense than near downtown. The downtown booth serves the walk-up traffic primarily.
There's also what appears to be a significant drop off/slope behind the building at 2377 if people haven't noticed. The building dates from early 1900's so it needs to stay as intact at possible.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 23:55:09
Yes it is seasonal, as is most of this part of the Cape. My grandmother Rebecca worked at the booth near the Chatham Town Hall in the summer. I can see the value of a place like that, where folks are already in Town, and walking along, but have questions.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 19:47:41
Debbie - I work next to ours and I may be wrong but I don't think it's open every day . It probably could be seasonal for the amount of folks/cars I see there.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 18:54:36
Richard- Isn't Eastham's just a seasonal information booth?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 17:55:57
The Orleans Chamber is in a former Fire Station. Probably town owned. No rent. My impression of the various Chambers of Commerce, be they Chatham, Orleans, Eastham or whatever is they have done their jobs. This place on the elbow of the Cape is known worldwide!
If no nickels were spent by the Chatham Chamber of Commerce for rent, other than Internet advertising, would the multitudes still want to visit a Patti Page Village? Yes. I think the word is out, that Chatham is a lovely town.
Unless you are trying to raise a family and are a fisherman, shellfisherman/woman.
The deal is stacked against so many who wish to live here year round , but can't afford to .

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 17:31:09
Debbie - there is HARDLY ever anyone there. In my opinion, John's comments are off base pertaining to this. I think this is a perfect location. It has looked like a slum entering town for some time and would be the PERFECT place - at the entrance to DOWNTOWN for visitors to see. Steve Lyons had an excellent column in the paper months ago asking the Town to get tough with Cumberland Farms. Now is the time for the Town to act. In less than a month, time will tell about 1610.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 12:18:43
This discourse will go nowhere if 1610 Main passes next month. However, I'd like to point out that both the Harwich and Orleans Chambers are located in their downtowns on very tiny lots. Why does Chatham need 1.559 acres for its Chamber facility that's way outside of downtown?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 11:07:40
Maybe some consider 'town' to be downtown but I never would. It's downtown to me because as I am already within town limits, I technically can't go into It unless I was in another town.
And if some thought that 1610 was too difficult to get to for those in downtown, isn't 2377 that much worse? Geographically, 1610 is closest to center of town boundaries of all the sites discussed which makes that part of town ideal for something that will draw users from all villages.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 10:28:45
Debbie - Exactly
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 10:14:19
I don't understand why an information center would need to be expanded. Just use the Cumbie building as is.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 09:51:23
If Cumbys donated the land maybe but I would like to see soil testing done by independent source to make sure of no contamination.
To buy the property would cost as much and maybe more than 1610 and would probably limit any expansion in the future.

Crayton Nickerson <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 09:33:03
John - those of us that live here year round consider "Town" to be the entrance to downtown. "in town, down town, etc". Sorry I didn't make myself clear enough to those who wouldn't understand that. I believe that's the perfect place . They don't get a lot of visitors where they are and this would be perfect. The original part of the building could be kept as is for offices and the buildout could be in the back.
WChatham, MA USA - Thu 12/05/2019 - 06:23:27
Judy, if it were to be at entrance to town then there should be one near Talkative Pig, another near Corner Store and another near Marconi because the entrance to TOWN is NOT the entrance to DOWNtown, esp given the horizontal length of town compared to vertical, thus the existing location is MUCH closer to border (approx a mile or less) on two of those three main routes (28 S, 137, 28 N). A visitor should NOT need to have to go 4+ or 2+ miles to downtown if heading to South Chatham or West Chatham respectively.
Yes, the eventual destination at some point may be downtown but NOT the initial one so don't force visitors there, ok?
I know it's not the 1950's but I believe for the majority of NEW visitors the existing location is close to ideal and MUCH better than anything in vicinity of downtown.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 23:42:34
Having met hundreds, maybe thousands, of visitors over the years who come to the Outer Cape to visit Nauset Light or Old Harbor Station in the Cape Cod National Seashore I have this to offer. if they want directions, my wife and I send them to visit Chatham as a must see.. If they come from Route 28 N or S (whichever it is designated by the State?) then they wind up coming in to Town from Route 28, into North Chatham , not 137. There is no welcoming station on the Route 28 path .
This is not the 1950's, when people arrived using a road map.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 18:57:49
I think having the Visitor's Center at the entrance to town makes more sense than where it is now. There is plenty of room out in back of that house to add on. It's a win win .
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 17:31:43
The old Sibley house was an awful lot more historical than the old Goodspeed gas station but Bill Marsh found a way to tear it down with no problems!! Sounds like the old gas station should be looked at with a keener eye for a COA building. The cost of taking the building down may be less than the cost of changing the grade and retaining walls needed at 1610 Main.
People began using Old Queen Ann more and more when the Town tore up Rt 28 and people got tired of the delays. Ask any business owner on the 28 corridor. Many will tell you their business never really recovered.

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 15:58:23
All roads lead to the stoplights.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 15:00:03
My comments were based on: 1) Location - it's the 'gateway' to Chatham from Rt 6 using the most direct route or coming from Rt 6 via 124. I believe we want a visitor center like ours where the majority of people enter town, not after they have wandered around it. Being in the 2377 building a number of times when tourists come in to ask for info, even with GPS, people are confused about how to get downtown so it's certainly helpful to be at that intersection.
2) Other routes - I feel Old Queen Anne is more likely to be used by people with prior experience in Chatham. Newbies tend to stay on regular highways like 28.

I'm not saying entire concept is impractical but having main visitor center at old Cumby's seems a bit tourist unfriendly to me, being in the hospitality buisness.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 13:34:19
J. Hallgren, Have you deemed the concept impractical without further investigation of the pros, cons and possibilities (for the COA & Chamber of Commerce) or did you mean to say it might be impractical? Not all visitors to Chatham enter town from Route 137 to Main St. My observation over the years has been that many visitors enter via Old Queen Anne Rd and from North Chatham. The current building at 2377 is certainly historic and has character, but so do the many seniors that would utilize a COA at that location!
J. Cauble
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 11:46:20
John - I fail to see in your post why it's impractical. I agree with Debbie and others and believe it's the most practical solution to date.
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 11:10:30
Cumberland Farms- Very creative idea! I think it was on the market for $795,000. Assessed for $704,200. Maybe they'd even donate it to the Town. But if not, that might be a better choice than spending $750,000. for 1610 Main St..
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 10:59:49
Interesting idea but not practical for a couple of reasons:
1) I'm sure that a majority of visitors to ALL villages of Chatham pass by 2377 Main including those heading for South & West Chatham and who may not go downtown for some time. So having C-of-C at one of the first places they come to in town is ideal.
2) The current building at 2377 is certainly historic and part of the character of our village so it would need to be retained. Could something be built behind that? Certainly but not sure if enough land back there for that.

Glad to see an entry by J. Cauble! Been TOO long since you've posted here!

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 10:43:20
See - it's really not that hard to come up with alternatives. Just VOTE NO for 1610!
WChatham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 10:07:06
And yet another option utilizing already developed, yet long empty, property that would mitigate urban blight. To those who will be able to attend the meeting, may the votes "stand up and be counted."
USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 08:58:32
Another possible COA option - Town purchases long vacant, former Cumberland Farms/Goodspeed Gulf at 859 Main St. for new Chamber of Commerce-Visitor Center now located at 2377 Main St. on town land (not an ideal central location for a visitor center). Build new slightly scaled down COA at 2377 Main St. Good location for a COA users, easy access, not in middle of busy business district, approx. same size lot as 1610 Main St.
J. Cauble
Chtham, MA USA - Wed 12/04/2019 - 08:07:09
They are wearing ear plugs! We'll show them!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Tue 12/03/2019 - 10:52:23
BOS is really in a damn rush to get this through huh?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 21:34:12
Special Town Meeting now being held on Saturday Jan 4th at 1:00 p.m. The BOS could not have been any ruder to totally ignore Elaine Gibb's questioning of changing the date . Remember - these are the folks we elected. I have never seen such a horrible display of public speaking in my life. Every other word from the Chairman was Um , um, Um. This is the best we can do? One of the other members did nothing but ramble incessantly. This is an absolutely pathetic example of town government using their influence to force a vote they're not going to be happy with.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 19:56:06
John- It's unfair to throw this out about Harwich. How many have you spoken to? What don't they like about it? Maybe it's their very small dedicated COA area. We'd have a two story separate wing, maybe with a dedicated multipurpose room that could be used by those who don't wish to interact with younger people. We have half the population of Harwich, but I'm betting that the Harwich seniors would be very happy with a larger two story addition to their Community Center.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 11:34:08
John, I think the solution would be to let the folks vote. This is a democracy last I checked. I am totally for a vote between the two buildings.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 11:25:34
Debbie - But since school isn't year round and there's likely more usage in summer, that's not a viable answer to that issue. Like I said before, it seems there are Harwich users of their COA who tolerate it being in combined building but aren't happy with the setup. So if it's not working perfectly there, why should we try it?
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 11:03:35
It makes me so sad to know that there are seniors who want nothing to do with younger people. For those few who think that way, they have 8-3 when school is in session to avail themselves of Community Center activities. Just like the Harwich senior pictured in today's Cape Cod Times while enjoying a card making class in the Chatham Community Center.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 10:54:03
Amy - It's my understanding that a number of users of COA want NO younger people to participate and/or wish to be away from them. There may be times when multi-generational activities occur but it seems they maybe don't want that forced on them which is another part of why they didn't want to use the Comm Ctr.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 10:31:52
Debbie - The amount of cars that are in the parking lot daily do not justify the numbers we were given. Not even close. They would have to work on their schedule and plan differently in order for it to work. Either way - these are the only two viable options. That's why a vote should be taken. We spoke before at a meeting about relocating the programs. The churches and other buildings the Town has helped in the past could help out - along with the Community Center. There does NOT have to be a huge cost associated with the move as there was with the Fire Dept. It will take work - but it's doable. I think folks should go to the BOS meeting tonight and make their thoughts known to them.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 10:03:30
Judy- Do you mean that both sites would have the same size building? If so, I'd think the current site would need some programming to be offered at the Community Center. Then there's the added cost for demo of the building and relocation of services. And the existing COA property couldn't be sold to help mitigate the cost.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 09:17:29
The vote should be changed to either the current building or the Community Center. That would satisfy a LOT of folks.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 08:19:05
If current COA property is not considered, put me down in favor of an addition to the Community center and Park and Rec. be damned.
Dick Fulcher <>
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 07:40:34
I believe that Park & Rec controls what happens in the Community Center. Instead of that, maybe there should be a "Director", such as Harwich has. Certainly a two story COA addition with less programming space would have a much smaller footprint than that which is currently being proposed for 1610 Main St.. Ample room for all ages sounds good to me.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 07:13:00
As far as I know, no group or committee owns the community center. No group has the right to claim a turf war. This is about our community and working together. I'm quite certain that a volunteer committee (with input from park and rec) can take the current schedule and determine availability of rooms. With an addition, there'd be ample room for all ages. Let's embrace the concept in a cooperative fashion. For example, if the COA wants cooking classes, how about making those multi generational? Can't we at least try this alternative which was never considered?
USA - Mon 12/02/2019 - 05:48:13
I voted against the size of the new PD, voted against the W Chatham project. I would vote against 1610 as the site of a new COA. The BOS and Town Manager listen to taxpayers at board meetings but do not take what they hear in consideration when voting on issues. A volunteer committee should be appointed without consultants or town employees to come up with a viable site and plan for a new or redo of the old COA
Southbury, CT USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 21:57:07
John, You are smarter than that. To be in a decent legal position, you can not tell your patrons to park on a neighbors private property. Real liability issues. You know this. The world is filled with lawyers who would love to litigate if anyone got hurt using another persons business to park in, then say, got hit crossing Rt 28.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 20:54:51
Debbie - Given the post-school history of building, I don't see it being shared by another department when timing of their respective programs overlap as much as they appear to possibly. If one user was strictly daytime and other night time, maybe. Both now have their own buildings and making them share isn't likely feasible. But it was that input from someone with knowledge of Harwich that said it wasn't working as well as planned there. Could it work? Maybe if as I said had been totally designed that way from scratch without reuse of school building.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 20:51:42
John- Are you OK with Park & Rec having complete control over the Community Center? Would you agree that an independent analysis of space use would be helpful? The entire premise here is that some of the 27,000 square feet of our Community (not Recreation) Center should have more of a priority for senior citizens. And maybe there's a way to keep the current recreation programs with some creative thinking. Ergo, a smaller new Senior Center at MUCH less cost. You, as a taxpayer, would certainly benefit!
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 20:13:41
Given the Comm Ctr building layout/structure and immediately surrounding ground, there's NO way in which the elevator could be shared with another structure, especially one whose primary users are seniors due to distance involved.
Maybe part of problem is 'turf war' because P&R aren't going to want to give up control of a building/site that has been theirs since school moved out. Had the COA been designed into it from beginning, maybe..but not now...and I have heard from someone familiar with Harwich which has a shared building and they said it's not the best solution either.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 20:07:45
I am opposed to a STM in January and opposed to BOS considering changing the date after January 13 was decided 5-0 and publicized. I am strongly opposed to 1610 Main and will vote against it. I strongly support an attached structure at the Community Center where the elevator, exercise room etc can be shared. We were never given that as an option. It would be much less expensive and can be multurposed in emergency situations. So make that at least 6 people on this site opposed to 1610.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 19:54:56
Debbie - Thanks! It's my understanding that a smaller building wasn't considered because it wouldn't provide sufficient space for existing programs, let alone any growth given the usage of Comm Ctr by other programs/users. And a similar size to existing or smaller was a non-starter for COA. The playground and ball fields are off-limits as is the flat area behind building per P&R as I recall.
Emily - I'm speaking of behalf of the people who fund most of spending here who for various reasons aren't able to be residents.also, I suspect the taxes per non-resident property exceed those of residents.
Alice - The idea of using other property for peak parking is common here already so why should this be treated differently?

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 19:50:19
John- I respect your opinion. However, I do need to ask you one question. In the very beginning, when sites were being evaluated, the same exact rendering of a 10,000+sf structure was shown for all options, including the community center. Based on that, the CC option was eliminated. We were never allowed to evaluate the ramifications of a smaller building on that site. What would the cost have been? How much more parking could there be, especially if the playground were to be moved? (Assuming the Little League ballfield would remain if its elimination would be the deal breaker.) I wish that more folks who agree with John would post here so we could know why the 1610 Main St. site is preferred. I just don't understand how it would work.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 19:34:00
Say no to One-Six-One-O!
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 19:25:45
John, I find your reasoning somewhat flawed. I am a voter and a taxpayer and I place strength with the people who care enough about Chatham to be voters!! Why aren't you? If you are disenfranchised, how can you justify your opinions about how the Town spends "your money"?
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 19:18:21
Suggest to the present COA Staff: A, what is your mission?
and B; What keeps you from fulfilling that mission?

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 18:54:08
John, Think we talked about this but maybe not. If I went to a bank and asked to borrow 750k to build a business and did not have enough parking and told them I was hoping my neighbors will let me use their parking lots, what do you think they would say?? They would show me the door.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 18:24:26
Although not a voter, but am a TAXPAYER so would be paying for it as well, like the other over 60% of non-residents who fund the BULK of town budget, and for me, 1610 is the only viable location for COA as Community Center is totally unacceptable due to location, access issues and lack of space to provide needed facility. Anyone who favors that intends to cripple the COA more than they are now, based on available information. The idea of sharing use of existing Community Center has been (IMO) proven to be a false premise by both COA and Park/Rec.
I find it a bit offensive that residents who pay the minority of tax are able to override the wishes of those who pay the majority.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 18:15:12
And now we have five in agreement opposing 1610 Main Street. I welcome others to weigh in.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 17:59:58
There is NO WAY we can even consider voting in favor with no written agreements to allow off site parking from the other property owners. . And that's only for starters.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 17:44:52
So, four of us agree. That's a start. First, the case has to be made against 1610 Main (parking across busy road, increased traffic on busy road, negative impact to conservancy area etc.). Secondly, I have to believe there would be huge savings if located next to the Community Center (smaller building along with minimal site work and no worries about permitting). Why can't we get an estimated cost for that?
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 16:03:25
I totally agree with Amy. The Selectmen are not listening to the people who elected them. Grass roots ideas have merit, but nobody is listening! 1610 Main St. is just plain wrong, and what is this about another consultant to make West Chatham a new dynamic center? STOP STOP STOP.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 15:35:07
Well said Amy! I agree with everything you said! I also find it despicable that the Town Manager and the BOS are trying to push this vote through in January. I hope it fails as well because that is an awful site selection. A volunteer committee would certainly do better than the powers that be have. I'm not even sure they've done anything as the owner of that parcel came to them.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 15:32:50
I am tired of hearing scare tactics like "the price is only going to go up" or "this is the last chance" as all sites have been considered. This is just nonsense. If this fails at a special town meeting, and I hope it does because I think it's the wrong site (starting with having the elderly park across busy route 28), then perhaps the selectmen should think about a volunteer committee (instead of paid consultants) to work with staff to come up with different alternatives. I keep repeating myself but why an addition to the community center hasn't been seriously considered is beyond me.
Is anyone questioning the propriety of the selectmen changing the time of town meeting to favor certain factions?

USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 14:58:06
My understanding is if the January vote fails there will be no May town meeting vote.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 14:19:23
As we understand things, If the special vote fails, they will have another go at it in the May Town Meeting.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 14:08:28
Debbie - I think you could possibly be right. This is exactly what happens when folks aren't willing to compromise. No one wins in the end. It makes me ill thinking of all the money we, as tax payers, have forked out for studies, surveys, and multiple designs. One thing we can all agree on - Chatham does an outstanding job of spending the tax payers money. Just look at the Fish Pier, the Airport, West Chatham, and now they are going to spend more with the Trap Docks. Maybe not having a COA is a blessing in disguise.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 13:33:15
Judy- More than one Selectman said that. Unfortunately, I'm convinced that this is it for them.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 09:13:40
Debbie - I heard that and found that to be a defeatist attitude from someone that can't even make the meetings on time. He and his board just need to put more work into it.
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 09:00:03
At least one Selectman has publicly stated that they've exhausted all options and we shouldn't expect any further consideration if it fails.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 08:51:44
It is LAST chance for a PALACE funded by voters. . It isn't the last chance for a reasonable new building. That's the difference . I fail to see the reasoning why any intelligent voter would vote for 1610 Main Street. There are already documented problems with parking . It would also need a retaining wall built in the back by the pond. Let us not forget the conservation nightmare and the mess at the airport . I also fail to understand when Mr Marsh lowered the price our Town Manager didn't negotiate it down further. This purchase makes no sense and I hope the voters send them all back to the drawing table. It's time for them to do the work they were elected to do. Find a different site .
WChatham, MA USA - Sun 12/01/2019 - 07:58:06
It's regrettable that the COA Article will probably be marketed as the last chance for a new COA. That's going to make it very difficult for anyone who would like to publicly oppose it.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 21:34:06
Could be Nancy. Judy Hanlon has a lot at stake. Her article in the Chronicle left more questions than answers as others here have said.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 20:52:03
Perhaps paid for by the Friends of the COA, separate from the COA.
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 19:19:00
Wonder if it was paid for with our Free Cash? That's a whole new level of low for those that sanctioned this. Uncompromising and less than truthful with their numbers and now this. I ran into someone at the Post Office today that I never necessarily equated with being interested in town stuff . He told me this latest ploy has sent him over the edge - trying to get a vote in the dead of winter. I don't think these folks know exactly how many people are disgusted with their underhanded ways - both the COA and the Board of Selectmen.
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 16:24:06
To be clear, it doesn't include anything about a new COA. It only promotes what they currently offer.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 14:24:13
Pretty low trick IMO. If I were in town I would go to the Orpheum and ask Kevin, face to face!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 14:02:57
Judy- I have no idea, but it's certainly gotten lots of views because every movie time has been sold out.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 09:19:56
Debbie - I wondered who paid for the ad?? Taxpayers?
WChatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 08:52:00
We saw Frozen II with grandchildren last night. Very enjoyable. Among the previews of coming attractions we were surprised to view a Town sponsored promotion of the COA. It includes several interviews of senior citizens who make use of it. I think the promotion is also on the Town website.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/30/2019 - 07:00:01
We were talking about Tim Roper and his CRAP COD CHRONICLE. Too bad he has passed., We can only guess about the things he would be writing about the goings on in the Town now. We are thinking about starting our own paper to take his place. Just don't know how to set up different fonts and stuff like that.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/29/2019 - 10:41:58
Ahh, palm trees, snow capped mountains, sunny and warm makes a wonderful Thanksgiving Day. Wishing everyone in the Chat-Room an equally grateful day.....we are all blessed.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Thu 11/28/2019 - 11:15:07
Happy Thanksgiving to the chat room
Crayton Nickerson <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/28/2019 - 10:34:39
In 1851 the chapel was purchased by Collins Nickerson and it was moved to his property and converted to a dwelling. It's across the street from where I live, hence my interest in its history.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/28/2019 - 10:18:39
Dick, was it your brother John who had the quarterboard of the Lottie K. Friend on his house?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/28/2019 - 08:19:45
The title of the book series mentioned below is "Chatham's Old Houses".
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 21:02:30
Thanks so much Richard. This is what appears in Book V of the Chatham Historical Society: "The Richard Gould Methodist Chapel- Richard Gould was the son of Josiah and Azubah (Dexter) Gould and a descendant in the eighth generation from Zeccheus Gould of Topsfield, now Ipswich MA. John Gould of Topsfield was his grandfather. He was always quite interested in religion and Methodism in particular. In 1808 he married Sarah Nickerson of Harwich. About this time he built a Methodist Chapel directly across from his property at the corner of School and Water Streets on Gould land." It goes on. Might you be familiar with this documentation?
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 20:48:25
Yes, I am a descendant of one Richard Gould. My grandmother, Mary Abbott Gould Wheeler, did in fact live in that very same house at the end of School Street, on the right. There is an identical house here in Eastham - same floor plan, same southern exposure, etc. When I went in to it maybe 25 years ago to do some work, i said to myself": This is so creepy. I have been here before", although I hadn't.

I have no knowledge of what Richard Gould might have done in creating a Chapel in the Village. . Captain Gould lost his vessel the Lottie K. Friend, while anchored, to a collision/allision with another vessel at Ship John Channel, NJ back in the late 1890's. He was the vessel captain and owner, and lost everything. The remains of the Friend were sold as is, where is, at auction for 48 dollars. Coal was cheap.
Therefore my maternal grandmother had to get by on very little money. on School Street She did come to live with us at Old Harbor Road in the winter. I miss her kind hearted soul.
She had twin sons, Ray and Reed, who were born maybe 14 years before Alice, my mom , was born in 1912

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 19:27:00
Richard- Thank you for your very nice post. I concur. I have a question for you. I seem to recall that you're a descendant of R. Gould, who lived on School Street. I was reading that he built a Methodist Chapel across the street from his house. It was later moved to the corner of Water and Silverleaf Ave.. Can you verify this?
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 17:40:26
Happy Thanksgiving to all fellow Chat M Room folks, whether lurkers or not. I was blessed with parents who provided well for us kids, whether a holiday or not. There must be families in Chatham and Harwich and even Orleans who are challenged, but it seems like there are always folks who are willing to provide for those in need. Hats off to them.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 17:16:17
Looks like there's going to be an all out effort to get COA supporters to the January town meeting. This plan is approaching $9 million. Middle Rd. was $6.35 million. A smaller addition to the Community Center certainly would have come in below $6 million. (Unfortunately, there was no interest in getting an estimate for that option.) If there's such a concern for keeping young people in town, how can 1610 Main St. be justified, considering the extra $3 million in tax revenue that'll be needed? Same for seniors on a fixed income. I don't think this is fiscally prudent, but it looks like I'll be out voted.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/27/2019 - 13:56:10
Thank you for the support, but nobody wants an absentee Selectman. With the way my work schedule is, I'd be in a photo finish with Jeff Dykens on who can miss more meetings. I also have a low tolerance for both people and their BS, and it's my keen observation that the Town is abundant with both! Maybe in a few years when there may not be as many irons in the fire.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/26/2019 - 20:26:32
Totally agree with you both! We're working on it!! The town is a mess and folks need to have their feet held to the fire since the current group can't seem to accomplish anything except looking for more money to spend on questionable purchases.
WChatham, MA USA - Tue 11/26/2019 - 16:54:55
If anyone can keep the ship on a straight course, it is Jared. I have been on trips with him on the CG36500. No one can hold a course better than he.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 11/26/2019 - 16:15:46
Jared, when are you going to run for BOS? Chatham needs leaders with the best long-term interests of the people and town in mind. Not kidding. I bet others feel the same.
E Harwich, MA USA - Tue 11/26/2019 - 14:11:59
I find it interesting (and strange) that a town that builds new municipal structures with future growth potential built in, is settling for a property where they believe parking may be inadequate from the start. I don't believe the COA needs as many spaces as they claim, nor do I believe 1610 is the most suitable location, but our fearless leaders pitching this project already see the inadequacies. Buyer beware.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 16:52:58
Judy - And I am in agreement with that statement. It was (what I read as) the mixing of the source of funds and the usage of funds that i found a problem in your statement and some others who have said similar.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 16:24:12
John - The Finance Committee as part of their Report to Taxpayers in 2019 -- this is in the May Annual Town Meeting Warrant -- makes the following statement: "It (referencing the overfunding of free cash) may be a quietly convenient way to generate funds to finance capital spending, but there is little transparency in the practice."
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 16:05:42
As a former Chatham Finance Committee member I often cringed when the term 'free cash' was used because it is a very misleading title to anyone not closely following the Town budget process. While a certain amount of funds in this account are necessary to allow the town flexibility (snow removal was a good example) I believe that rather than 'Free Cash' (which I think is a very disingenuous title) there are many more accurate titles for this budget category, a couple of my favorites are 'overpaid taxes' or 'prepaid taxes' but neither of those would serve the Town's purpose.
Steve West <>
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 14:48:44
Judy - Yes, I fully understand that you don't want money spent on this but that's a totally SEPARATE issue from what was being discussed which is the accounting term 'Free Cash' and that usage of it is handled by different procedures than money voted/allocated to a given budget item. You're mixing up two distinctly separate issues (do we spend it -and- which acct is money in) into one when they have to be discussed one by one.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 14:22:32
John - It is PREPOSTEROUS. It's OUR money to begin with - whether or not it is spent or NOT. What part do you want to argue about this? Seriously? Many folks do NOT want our money (free cash) spent on this.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 12:59:21
Seriously- do neither of you understand where the money comes from in the first place?
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 12:36:38
Having worked for the town of Marshfield for many years I can say without hesitation that any money unused by any department is turned back in for whatever qualifying use. For example, if it is a particularly snowy winter and all funds for snow and ice have been used, said line item may be replenished with free cash.
Nancy Ryder Petrus <>
Brewster, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 11:46:13
Judy - Both Jill and Alex ARE correct in that the money would come from "Free Cash" which is simply the NAME of that particular account in the system, ok? It doesn't mean free as in 'no cost' but free as in unused/leftover by the account it was originally allocated to. The distinction is crucial in understanding this. So it's not 'preposterous' but just technically accurate for accounting purposes.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 11:31:23
Many of us who disappear for part of the winter would love to be able to vote absentee at the special Town Meeting. I am against purchasing 1610 for many reasons, but who knows how a spate of absentee ballots might go.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 09:20:52
John - while many of us disagree with what is going on with the airport, that was only ONE of the arguments. The other points Elaine listed were equally concerning. I find it hard to believe that folks would even consider forking out our money for that ridiculous purchase. The statement by the TM that it is "free cash" is preposterous . It's OUR money. This property is not a feasible location. The BOS have successfully angered an entire new portion of the population by forcing this "Special Town Meeting" in January - which has been stated before.
WChatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 06:25:50
As documented in the maps presented, NO portion of 1610 Main is within ANY area that would/could be affected by the Airport Master Plan Upd. so that's a false argument. The neighboring property to the west has portions within that area. If 1610 was the OSJL property location, then it could be a problem but not where it is actually at. And the amount of airplane noise there isn't significantly different than road noise from Rt 28 and won't interfere with any activity.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/25/2019 - 04:01:30
Lets look at things. The Selectmen have voted to have a special town meeting. This meeting is to take place after many of the older people in town go south for the winter. How does this make any sense? Isn't this the group with the highest ratio of users of the COA? The Selectmen don't want to "kick the can down the road" as has been said at their meetings. How is it ok to treat the older residents who go south by kicking them in the bottom and deny them the right to vote on 1610 Main?
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/24/2019 - 21:29:51
There are so many things wrong with the overpriced 1610 Main purchase. I'm baffled by the Selectmen's thought process when spending $9million of taxpayer money on a municipal building -including asking for and relying on private property owners for overflow parking. What property owner, in their right mind, would encumber their own property for the lifetime of a Town owned building.? What if the property owner wants to sell to a new owner, or an elderly person gets hit crossing the street? Whose liability is that? And why would the BOS even consider a purchase until the Airport Master Plan is completed and we know what the impact will be? To push this through in the dead of winter is disenfranchising half of the taxpayers.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/24/2019 - 16:30:32
We [as a town] have ben told time after time that if the town buys 1610 Main that we as a town will seek agreements with local business in the area that will allow off site parking. Will the
selectmen have at the very least, letters of intent to allow this at the Special Town Meeting or are we to do what they have been saying about other projects [just trust us] Getting tired of hearing that!

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/24/2019 - 14:07:10
Tomorrow night the BOS will be voting to authorize the Warrant article to purchase 1610 Main Street for the Special Town Meeting in January. There is no way this will guarantee the approval of voters for a new COA project to be determined at the regular Town Meeting in May. If, at the May Town Meeting, the project is rejected, we will have already purchased the land. I am voting against the purchase but it seems the tax payers are at risk without some sort of contingency plan that the sale will not go through UNLESS the COA project is approved at Town Meeting in May. Who negotiated this sale at $750K? The Town Manager said the principal lowered the price at one of the meetings; however, there was NO negotiation. Why give the owner such a huge profit? I feel as if no one is watching the store or watching how are tax dollars are being spent.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/24/2019 - 13:45:11
While I applaud the new owners of the Monomoy Theater property plans to renovate the complex, doesn't construction of an over 55 community conflict completely with what the town is currently trying to do--- Bring families and affordable housing to Chatham? This will be interesting
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/24/2019 - 07:37:10
The upcoming Selectmen's agenda has several items relating to the COA Warrant Article for the January 13th Special Town Meeting. Moving right along...
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/23/2019 - 06:43:02
Emily - Back on Thursday, you mentioned "overbuilt PD, FD". I would agree there's part of PD that wasn't needed and even Chief Pawlina said so when they had opening public tour but that some of that was due to CPRC who wanted a certain look to it.

Now as to FD, which I was very familiar with: There's only one very small room that I felt was not needed and seeing new Brewster station, which doesn't have it, confirmed my views -but- otherwise, based on usage, Chatham got the right size FD and actually is undersized in one area compared to other modern/new stations that I have seen in last couple of years.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/23/2019 - 00:01:02
Kim T: From the Nickersons, to the Eldridges, Eldredges, Hopkins, Bearses, to the Snows, to the Ryders, to the Fulchers: We are all washashores: It is a matter of degree.
Richard R.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 18:12:22
Also, if you visit the Cape Cod National Seashore Visitor Center in Eastham, then move to the Marconi site in Wellfleet, then on to the Province Lands Visitor Center at Race Point. and then to actually enter the Race Point parking lot, you will have been counted four times. Be wary of visitor counts.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 18:00:45
Suggest that Chatham planners look to the Town of Orleans to determine how much it cost to relocate the Orleans Pollce Department to a temporary site, with modular buildings with radio capabilities, etc. The COA has no such requirements. Maybe phone and Internet service.
Once the new OPD palatial quarters were ready for occupancy, the modular buildings were returned to their owners. Like, or as if, nothing ever happened.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 17:49:30
Some numbers: The vote on Middle Rd. was 284 yes 219 no. Price was $6,350,000. I think I heard it's escalated to $7,200,000 six months later. This will be an argument against delay. January town meeting in 2013 and 2017 saw 395 and 403 total votes cast. Let's say that 400 voters show up in January 2020. 267 votes would be needed. 284 supported Middle Rd. last May. I wonder if 1610 Main St. could garner 267 votes if 400 voters show up.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 15:37:46
I meant to say that Debbie's idea with MCS was outstanding and Emily hit the nail on the head. Why can't our BOS come up with some ideas?
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 12:56:12
John - Churches and some other venues like Masonic Hall certainly wouldn't charge any fees for relocation costs or to hold some programs there. Remember the tax payers have done a lot for them as well. One half million to relocate a few programs is not accurate. Other departments had more equipment, more employees and were busier. This can be done as well for the COA. The Board of Selectman need to go back to the drawing board. Middle Road was voted down and 1610 most likely will not pass. There are other options - as one here was already listed. Demo-ing the current building and rebuilding is not that expensive - if you hire competent people - something the Town doesn't do too often.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 12:43:03
Might the Middle Rd. COA site be the most likely to get a 2/3 vote, now that all the alternatives are known? It appears to me that if not 1610 Main Street, that's the only viable option.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 12:03:49
Judy - Based on other departments temporary relocation costs, I doubt it could be done for less than 500K due to more complex nature of this project. And remember that any municipal building project will probably cost at least 30% more than equivalent commercial due to prevailing wage laws. Also, reusing existing site adds demo costs which doesn't exist on new site. I suspect that by the time one adds these extra costs, it would nearly equal or exceed cost of buying 1610 property.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 11:33:03
Kim T and Kem. Thanks for joining the group. Please do not be afraid to speak your mind. Frankly, when every one agrees, the chance to change minds goes away! Things get boring! We need many different opinions to make this a worthwhile place to visit and take part in. We raised our children here and were raised here ourselves.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 09:20:34
Thank you for your encouraging words. I am a year round resident and parent - a minority in Chatham. I wanted you to be aware of how it's changed since I was a child. Security, rules and regulations that are important, but sometimes prohibitive. I'm still learning about our town and it's government, as a *gasp* washashore, but love Chatham dearly.
Kim T <khodge29@aol,com>
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 08:34:42
The numbers presented in the Chronicle certainly leave a lot to be interpreted. One would think a better job could have been done to bolster the argument that they have outgrown that building.. I still urge everyone that can, to drive by the building any given day. No reason in the world that building can't be demolished and rebuilt for under 7 million dollars. Any competent builder can pull this off. Programs can be relocated without significant costs. That would mean starting the process now.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/22/2019 - 06:23:09
Debbie - I'm using the handout from COA as source for my data, and it was most likely used as basis for the Chronicle article/editorial. And based on a couple of conversations with COA volunteers/etc., that's how I am interpreting it. Obviously some folks use COA more than others so while one person may use it once or twice a year, others may do so for more than one function/activity per day and thus be counted for each usage as should be expected.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 22:51:01
John, I just think we need to be careful about interpreting numbers. The numbers that are used in the editorial need clarification.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 22:17:21
Debbie - As I understood their report, that's correct. For ex, the report shows 46 people and 1,432 participations in Fitness/exercise so appears that a total 46 unique people (residents and non-res as they didn't isolate that breakdown) attended one or more sessions for a total of 1.432 times.
If that same one person used other programs, they'd be listed in those subtotals as well.
Note the 1,066 + 171 guests in report heading, right? I believe that's non-residents who may be Chatham taxpayers but could be visitors as well.
So as I read it, that's close to roughly 2,700 unique people who used something at least once.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 21:12:50
So 1452 distinct Chatham residents over age 60 participated in COA programs? Might it be possible that one resident could have participated in lunch plus exercise plus birthday party plus socialization and thus be counted four times?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 20:09:44
Kem - welcome! Your numbers are accurate. We have been counting cars daily and except for Thursday's the average number of cars per day is 6-7. Thursday the parking lot is filled at certain times. Those overflow programs could certainly be relocated during the day to the Community Center. Or, as I suggested before - better scheduling could be utilized. I have a spreadsheet with the programs and # of cars in parking for those programs. There are many of us that do not support spending the amount of money this calls for. On another note - today they were power washing the building and it looks like they are getting ready to paint it. A day late and dollar short. WY to spend our tax dollars!
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 17:25:35
Mr. Hallgren I understand this. I am sure there are busy days. However she stated there were 16,439 participants last year. Take away those who took transportation to stores etc.(3176) 132 seniors did this and the numbers who got outreach referrals for meds, food and fuel assistance etc (3179) serving 460 seniors and the recreational and socialization programs, ie birthday parties, field trips (3352) 460 seniors did this. I am just pointing out that many of this activities are off site or one on one counseling in an office or two. I guess I am questioning the size (and perhaps need) for a new building.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 16:58:14
Kem: Welcome to the site as a poster and not just a lurker! Glad to have new inputs here given the recent lack of participation and loss of some older regulars.
As a user, I would say: The 1452 is a total nbr of resident unique people who used it but NOT how many times they used it so dividing that by 250 isn't a correct method to get daily usage.

J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 16:12:17
I have followed the room for many years but have not commented. I was born and raised in Chatham, recently returning after many years away for work. I own a home here and have watched town spending escalate with each passing year. My comments are about the COA. (and I am a senior). I believe the COA does need an upgrade (maybe even a new facility) but not to the tune of 6-8M. I want to draw your attention to the "You Guest It"in last weeks Chronicle by Judy Hanlon. She stated that in fiscal year 18-19 the center was used by 1452 seniors. OK There are about 261 weekdays in a year. Lets be fair and say 250 accounting for holidays. So 1452 seniors divided by 250 days averages out to approx. 6 participants a day. Being fair, it seems like the exercise programs are busy (46 people) but this is only offered twice a week, hence a waiting list. (I believe these exercise programs could be offered offsite -CC perhaps). They are serving many lunches- I am not sure this is a problem area or not. She stated that a total of 16,439 utilized COA last year but that number included referrals, aid and support. (I would think this would be on a 1 to 1 basis using one or two offices- perhaps even off site) and transportation to grocery, medical, and cultural events. Sorry to be so long winded just some of my thoughts and ramblings Chatham residents need to look at this expenditure very carefully.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 14:15:26
This is exactly the kind of discourse the BOS and the Town Manager should be involved in. Ground roots ideas and solutions instead of politics, process and personal gain. We as voters must continue to express our concerns for a new and different approach to projects. Fix the problems FIRST, Fish Pier deck is a disgrace, West Chatham rotaries even worse, COA, Trap Dock, overbuilt PD, FD, Airport......where does it stop? The January Town Meeting is a heavy-duty way to bully their way knowing few will be in Town, it is a total AFFRONT to our long-term Community citizens.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 14:10:27
To further expand on my previous thoughts: The Town bought land from the VFW in order for them to have funds for their mandated sewer hookup and other upgrades. Likewise, MCS has been under a sewer hookup order. So why not also help MCS out with the Town buying their property? MCS moves to the Ellis property and uses the funds to upgrade for their use. And no sewer hookup would be in the equation for MCS. The Town could sell Stony Hill and use the funds to defray the cost of the MCS purchase. And a sewer hookup would be available for a COA. Other ideas are welcomed!
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 07:11:42
I think that the former Ellis's property in conjunction with some of the Elementary School property, declining enrollment, should be looked into for the C.O.A. Center.
Thomas Doane <>
WEST CHATHAM, MA USA - Thu 11/21/2019 - 00:19:38
I have knowledge of the deed restriction on Marion Ellis's property. Absolutely no new construction. It is to be used by children and it's to have a playground named for her husband. (There is a sign there to that effect.) It would have been wonderful if Monomoy Community Services could have moved to that building (and barn), maybe renting it from the Town. The Town would take over the property on Depot Rd. and the MCS building could be the wing of a new COA fronting on Depot Rd. I suggested this to a few Town officials with no response. So I guess it wasn't thought to be a viable option.
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 20:27:13
Thank you for your encouraging words. I am a year round resident and parent - a minority in Chatham. I wanted you to be aware of how it's changed since I was a child. Security, rules and regulations that are important, but sometimes prohibitive. I'm still learning about our town and it's government, as a *gasp* washashore, but love Chatham dearly.
Kim T <khodge29@aol,com>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 19:19:26
There appears to be no satisfactory solution for a new COA building. Highly unlikely tax payers will approve the purchase of 750K for 1610 Main Street. I think it's time to be proactive and seek out another location or consider the current location. Get a head start on things and start contacting other places in town to relocate programs. Churches, the Masonic Hall and the Community Center will do for short term.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:48:33
Thank you Kim for all the information I was not aware of. I assumed the numbers were smaller and today's security issues and the Monomoy Regional agreement make it impossible . I just wish there was a creative solution to avoid another expensive project.
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:31:50
Just wanted to thank Kim T for her post contribution here! It's only second one I have seen and want to encourage continued postings like that as said a number of things that I was thinking of re school and impracticability of using that space. Not only that, but old water dept land has (I think) some deed restrictions that may block use of that parcel as well for a COA.
J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 18:28:25
Just finishing reading Part 2 in the Chronicle about the flooding in the Little Beach area. Two things come to mind. 1) Could the people who bought property there not see that the land was at sea level? 2) They didn't do their homework or they would have learned that the area n the 40's and 50's flooded all the time. It seems like people who want to live next to the sea know very little about it. It is a monster, constantly changing the land it touches. The old sea captains knew this and built their homes further inland. The property owners and they alone should be responsible for any flooding, there should be no expense to the town for their foolish choices.
Barbara Stevenson <Bejsteve@gmail.mail>
San Diego , CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 17:50:52
Have to agree with Kim. Like it or not she is right. The Monomoy agreement says both towns shall maintain a separate elementary school. Truth is, we gave up town rights to all school buildings when we voted to have a Regional system. [Same goes for Harwich]Wish we could make it work but is seems to be out of the question.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 16:55:10
Use the school and push the 270 children out for how many seniors using this center? Each town has an elementary school per the Monomoy regionalization agreement. The middle school on Crowell houses students from Harwich and Chatham, there is no room to add Head Start, Pre-k and K-4 students. They would have to be in a separate location as grade 5 is now. Schools are locked, any adult must be buzzed in, signed in and have a current CORI background check to volunteer. The cafeteria is not an option due to health code regulations and we do not have an auditorium. There is a gym only. We are in process of building a playground that utilizes almost 300k in Community preservation funds. It's just not an option.
Kim T <khodge29@aol,com>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 16:41:03
Emily, I agree with you move the children up to Crowell Rd. school there should be enough room. You could build a play ground and have a bus run them to the Community building after school.
Crayton Nickerson <>
Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 13:20:39
I fail to understand why the Elementary School did not receive more scrutiny as a possibility. A declining population of children combined with an increased population of seniors could and should be worked out as a win-win! We own the land. We own the old Water Dept. adjacent. A large kitchen and auditorium are already in place. It is downtown, near Fire/paramedic services and entertainment opportunities. Seniors reading to children or just watching them on the playground would benefit both. Worries about kids witnessing emergencies is just plain life and does not happen often at our current COA. Could save millions of dollars!
Emily Cunningham <>
Rancho Mirage, CA USA - Wed 11/20/2019 - 12:18:24
What if "they" don't like the outcome of the vote? Will it then be non/binding like the Town Manager decided the vote in West Chatham was after folks voted that down?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 18:38:59
The two articles should be in the same town meeting. The failure of one should nullify the other. We shouldn't have a meeting in January to purchase property and hope for the best in May. If we purchase in January and COA vote fails in May, what are we supposed to do, wait another year to figure out what to do with that half barren lot that Dollar Bill want s to unload on us?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 18:23:10
John, Several dates were thrown out last night - but the final date is in January for the Special Town Meeting. The voters get to decide whether or not we will purchase 1610 Main Street. In May the voters will decide whether they want to fund the new COA. As I said before, they are certainly going to be without a paddle, if the voters turn down the land purchase.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 14:08:04
AFAIK: There was never to be any vote on "proceed with a new COA" in May but just votes on money for more detailed plans and then money to build it. The decision to build a new one was made via a vote at regular BOS meeting earlier because they had determined that sufficient evidence had been presented to prove that current building was not adequate for numerous reasons and was already part of overall building upgrade/replacement plan for many years.

Now I also agree that having a special town mtg on Dec 21 may be a bad choice but in order to make any progress on project before May, they wanted to do something and the only possible first vote would be the land purchase.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 13:52:24
Alice - I don't understand why he even thought to mention a date of Dec. 21 - that was just crazy - right before Christmas. You are 100% correct in stating the BOS have now angered and alienated an entire new group of voters. Without the purchase of that land, they'll be stuck with their current location. It makes no sense whatsoever to buy that property prior to getting an ok from Town Meeting in May to proceed with a new COA. That just shows you the new lows certain folks have sunk to in order to try something this outrageous.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 13:17:51
Sorry, we meant the voters at a special will have enough votes [1/3 ] to kill the land buying.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 12:56:47
First off, we think Jeff Dykens was checking the calendar on his phone. We were looking at our calendar at the same time. All who opposed a special town meeting were correct. People who go south for the winter are being blocked from voting. Chances are this group would vote to support a new COA. Those left to vote in a special town meeting will probably have enough votes to meet the 2/3 needed to kill buying the Main St land. The Selectmen have now angered and alienated an whole new group of voters. Question is, "What will we do next?"
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 12:05:43
The part that frosts me is that they WANT to buy this property before we even get to vote on the COA in May at the regular Town Meeting. It was pointed out to them last night they are putting the cart before the horse and being penny wise and pound foolish. Mr. Dykens was busy looking at his phone then decided to make the motion of holding this Special Town meeting on December 21. Four days before Christmas. Obviously someone is pulling their strings. I think it's time for us to come together as tax payers and say enough is enough. Vote the purchase down.They will be forced to start all over again when the land purchase is defeated. They will have no one to blame but themselves for their egregious behavior. To have a meeting in the dead of winter is just wrong.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/19/2019 - 05:51:23
Not a lot of faith in a majority of Board of Selectmen. Voting for a special town meeting when many of the snowbirds are gone. All to ram the sale of an overpriced lot down our throats. Not to mention trying to buy it from you know who. I cannot support the most expensive option for rebuilding the COA, on a property we don't even own, that we shouldn't own, for an asking price way over what it is worth, in a location that is no more convenient than either current location or Chathamport. SOMEBODY will be miffed about the distance they have to travel to get to to the senior center bo matter its location. So what the hell is so great about this property that we have to hold a town meeting in the dead of winter to get it.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/18/2019 - 21:23:03
Thanks to Cory Metters and Dean Nicastro tonite for trying to prevent a special town meeting in January. They are going to put to vote the purchase of 1610 Main Street during the dead of winter when folks are away Talk about a slime ball move on the part of the others. Please remember this at the polls.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/18/2019 - 19:50:32
We caught the Airport Comm meeting on tv. We have more questions than before and are pretty sure others do too. John, you were right that the man from Brewster was not treated well at all. It almost looks like they need to scrap the whole deal and start over, this time listening to the public from the start, which they did not do.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/17/2019 - 08:08:19
Love the way this room has been revitalized - "lurking" these days because I don't have anything to add on local issues like senior center but enjoy following the lively discussions - I know some of the originals like Jane, Carl, Tim P, Donnie Nick would be proud of the way the Room has restored itself - I hope Anna is also lurking - very happy for you John you deserve this after all the effort you put into it
ben h
USA - Sat 11/16/2019 - 13:51:50
Well said Jim! I knew your parents well and I know your sister so I would like to meet you some day and shake hands.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 21:25:54
Just thought everyone may like to know. We attended a funeral today off Cape. Next to the headstone of every veteran was a new crisp flag.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 21:08:48
You've got it John. If things get slow, I'll toss a few hand grenades in here to get things moving!!

On that note, I'd urge a shift in protocol: please don't say things in here to, or about, someone that you wouldn't say to their face. I'm kind of a jerk so I'd say a lot to someone standing in front of me, but most of the folks posting here are good people and very decent. We are all attracted to the town.

I get that there are a few folks that are attracted to the possibility of pillaging the town; but for the most part, people are decent. No one rolls out of bed in the morning thinking of how to screw their neighbor over.

Maybe tone the rhetoric down a bit and adopt a more conciliatory attitude? It's. small town....we all have to live and work together (especially when the Chinese paratroopers start landing....). :)


USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 18:52:37
John - you've done a great job with this. Even though we disagree on some things, I do appreciate the job you do maintaining this site. Please don't hesitate to let any of us know if you need anything else.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 12:53:28
Wayne, JimP and others: While I greatly appreciate your offers of monetary support, what would help me and this site even more would be to tray and make sure that it gets new activity such that it doesn't go for more than a couple of days without any posts, ok? You don't have to make the greatest post or something that will be remembered for years but in Sept, the statistics showed the LOWEST activity for any of the last year, not only in posts but in visitors.

That was somewhat depressing to me but as Moderator, I didn't feel it was appropriate to be the one to write something new just to get usage. So instead of money, PLEASE contribute words, ok? It's no cost to you but helps even more. I know there's Facebook where some of our regulars also post as do I, but let's keep this ole pre-FB thing going as well!
Thanks much!

J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/15/2019 - 09:39:35
John, as I see you are still here I would be happy to stop by with some cash to help defray expenses. As you know I have been here from the very begging. I helped set up the original one on the Telecam site. It is so great that you have kept it going.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 20:02:50
John - concur on the monthly sponsorship bit. I know you are a class act and won't ask folks for cash. back-channel me your addy and I'll "adopt a month." easy-peasy.
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 19:40:53
Judy - Thanks for offer but I kind of gave up on the sponsor thing and don't mind paying when people actively USE it. It's those weeks without any posts or very few that make it a bit sad for me.
J. Hallgren (as Moderator)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:36:09
John - do you need any money to keep up the website? Happy to send some
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:30:09
Judy - I HAD paid very close attention to the costs and that's why I said it the way I did. Because temporary relocation costs could easily exceed $500K-$600K and that needs to be factored in as well as the non-monetary costs of disruption to user activities.

As I've said before and others who are actively involved in using the building have said: 1610 is the BEST site of the ones offered, and is better than current for a variety of reasons.

No need to apologize about the discussion because it's made this site MORE used and popular and as the one paying for it, getting used makes me feel HAPPY! Even when I am getting a bit of negative keep on discussing whatever as long as we can keep it civil as we've done thus far 99% of the time.

Thanks for recognizing that us non-res taxpayers are funding a huge chunk of these expenses! I would even suspect that the average tax bill of non-res may be higher than the average of residents but don't have any proof of that yet.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:20:40
And now I am really leaving the conversation.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:16:55
One problem with Stony Hill is that with a two story building and just above ground parking, there are 25 spaces, compared with 54 on Main Street. My thinking is to move mechanicals and storage to a basement level. That should reduce the footprint. Also have some employee parking down there. The other problem is the opposition to relocation during construction.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 18:13:48
John - you do pay your share of taxes and I'm sorry I wasn't more sensitive to that. This is a hotly contested topic and folks do not seem happy with the choices we've been given. I'm particularly upset that they want to push a special town meeting in January to push this through. This is not fair to the folks that travel during the winter months. I also don't agree with purchasing more land. These are my feelings and I feel as a tax payer we are being absolutely taken advantage of with this project and the other ones like the fish pier and the West Chatham Roadway project. We wont even get into the mess with the airport and the property owners around it. The town is a mess. Let's clean it up and fix what we can before engaging in another multimillion project that has so much controversy surrounding it . Like Debbie - I'm done with this conversation and I do apologize to everyone that has put up with this discussion for the past several weeks.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 17:57:19
John - had you paid attention when the costs were discussed- without the underground parking garage - the current site will do. It's much less money. The point folks are trying to make here is that the Community Building can be utilized during the day for overflow programs and the current site can rebuilt without forking out 750K for an unsuitable property bordering conservation area in West Chatham. That location is a joke located between two rotaries with minimal parking.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 17:01:28
Chatham used to be a wonderful place to grow up in and to live in. Surely there must still be something positive about living there. Would like to hear about it!
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 16:50:27
John- We agree on that point.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 16:19:21
Debbie - Don't give up yet! Though we may disagree on some things, it's good to have your views on this topic. My point re taxpayers was that some seem to think because we don't vote here, our money doesn't count either BUT it certainly does given the over 60% of tax being paid by us so if there's something that we would benefit from, letting the minority of taxpayers say no to entire project isn't ideal either.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 15:27:09
John, This will probably be my last comment on the COA issue. Know that my reference to residents included non resident taxpayers. I'm just interested in Community Center use numbers for non taxpayers. Finally, I hope this doesn't get voted down due to lack of compromise. The existing building definitely needs to be replaced.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:47:57
Judy - Because while they may have a somewhat usable building now, it's been proven beyond reasonable doubt that reusing the current site isn't possible without extra expenses which may well offset the purchase price of 1610. They have compromised a fair amount already on some things but trying to hold their programs at scattered locations is something they understandably won't do.

And as I've said before, it's NOT just the residents money being spent - it's mostly NON-residents who are funding these projects so we shouldn't be ignored.
And I am going based on facts as presented by town officials/volunteers whom you have in effect accused of lying about various items since you apparently don't believe their documentation/statistics.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:31:15
All that plus on site parking must accommodate 54 vehicles. Amazing! And overflow parking is across busy Route 28. Do COA folks really think that's a good idea?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:26:06
Kenny - It certainly seems that way. They want their OWN space, their OWN design, and they WON'T share with the younger folks at the Community Center. It's time for everyone to put the brakes on ridiculous spending. It is out of hand. Why buy MORE property when they have a perfectly usable building they can rebuild?
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 14:13:12
So complicated and controversial it's hard to keep up. Are Chatham snowflakes - sorry, I meant seniors - getting triggered because they might lose their safe space? OMG!
USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 13:35:13
The lower level "youth space" has an after school program for middle school youths. Otherwise I believe it's empty. These youths are from both Harwich and Chatham. It would be interesting to know the breakdown. In the summer, the entire building is reserved for summer rec, yet this is supposed to be a "community building". Not fair. (Summer program participants don't have to be Chatham residents. A breakdown here would also be interesting.)
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:41:06
John - you are way off base with what you said about how you interpret my comments. I have told several folks (including Debbie just last week) and they'll readily agree - I do believe they need a new COA. I have no problem with that. What I disagree with and so many others do as well, is that we do NOT need another palace built. These folks have yet to prove to many of us why they need x amount of parking spaces when their lot is hardly ever filled. On the days it is filled - they can either alter their schedule or use the Community Building. I also have a huge problem with taxpayers forking out more money for 1610 Main Street when they can rebuild their current building. Yes, I have had my share of unsatisfactory experiences there. That is a management problem - not a systemic one. You can choose to interpret my comments however you'd like - but as a non-resident, you should stick to what you know and what the others here are saying. Like Debbie says, and I totally agree - there needs to be a compromise. Without that, there is no new building.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:37:31
Debbie, though I've not been down there, isn't the basement of the Comm Ctr devoted to youth? Then that should also be removed and made common space. As should the back of library since why should we have a dedicated youth area based on that approach? I've been told that some of the users of the COA don't want to deal with any other age groups and I think they've earned that right.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 12:21:26
John, IMHO, compromise is needed. And there doesn't appear to be much interest in compromise. There should be no "dedicated space".
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:32:33
And how is it that seniors manage to get to and from the Community Center for pickleball, Mens' Group, Senior fitness class, weight room, voting, etc.?
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:25:28
My point was that, to me, the COA is just as important as any other age group and needs equal access to facilities which includes same times/days of week year round and not based on when school or other users may interfere. And based on what I know, that's not currently possible with the Comm Ctr. Plus, they presently have dedicated space so why should they have to give up to other users? I think we all get that Judy has apparently not only a dislike for the COA but wants revenge of some type, like closing it down if possible, which is how I read/hear the comments.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 11:21:20
Most other towns with a Senior Center do not have the luxury of a Community Center. There has to be space available there when school is in session. I have a problem with building more COA space than is needed just because some seniors might have an issue with "access" to the Community Center.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 10:38:05
John - how in the world can you make such a ridiculous statement. They can schedule those classes when the building is empty - as we are trying to point out.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 10:21:43
A wait list like that is NOT related to scheduling so any theory making that assumption is flawed. It's due to lack of space in the current facility. And the Comm Ctr probably doesn't have that type space available at the frequency needed and users likely don't want to deal with access to that building. That's my understanding of it.
J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 09:52:46
That's being done Debbie- along with the drivebys . You're absolutely correct about moving those classes to the Community Center. I think it's time for them to go back to the drawing board and rethink this.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 09:34:22
Rather than a random COA drive by, I suggest checking the monthly calendar, published in the Chronicle (see 10/31 edition). I'm guessing peak time is lunch. Not much in the afternoon. If fitness offerings are the ones with waiting lists, I don't understand why they can't be held at the Community Center. There's a Senior Lite Fitness offering currently listed on the Community Center calendar.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/14/2019 - 08:44:47
Interesting column in Chronicle today from one of folks involved in advocating for a bigger space for the COA. Several friends and I have been driving by the current location on a daily basis. The varying times we've taken note of the 4-7 cars in parking just don't make sense for her argument that there are waiting lists for their programs . To me it seems like a poor job of scheduling those programs/classes that have "so-called" waiting lists. I'm not the only one that has mentioned this. Not going to be swayed by those numbers at all. Drive by as we do - different times/different days.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/13/2019 - 18:14:54
Wayne, thank you. My point is to the folks who always ask: "who?"

It is up to you....YOU are the one's to remember the fallen, the sacrifices, the cost of the wars. When we off-site not only the wars, but taking care of our warriors and their remembrances, we've cast off from our moorings and lost our way.

Waving a flag is easy, picking up a rifle and manning the wall isn't. Trite phrases are easy, caring for and helping our wounded for the rest of their lives is hard.

USA - Tue 11/12/2019 - 18:39:07
To all of those who served including both our late Fathers, we thank you and are grateful for your service!!
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/12/2019 - 14:12:24
Oh,and JimP I am from West Chatham and I served. In combat with distinction.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:55:07
Judy, The flags are put in the cemeteries by the VFW every year just before Memorial Day. My Grandfather got one as did the Vets. around him. We have had a lot of storms this summer and the flags are not of high quality and they get destroyed and blow on the ground. The lawn mowers pick them up and dispose of them. I have picked up a number my self. I think it is disgraceful to have these flags lying on the ground in tatters so I pick them up and dispose of them. If I can tell where they came from and they are in decent shape I will put them back. Otherwise they go to the VFW to properly be dealt with. If you want to see the flags I suggest going on Memorial Day. I would be happy to meet you there and we could do a tour.
Wayne <>
West Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:48:43
meh - less than 1/2 of 1% today have served or serve. .047%. Fact.

We are involved in interminable wars since politicians figured out how to turn the bodies of our troops into votes. It went into high-gear with Madelain Albright and the Clintons. We have turned into a barbaric Nation. The people don't care anymore. So long as they can drive their cars, go to the mall, see what the Kardashians are doing at any given moment and drink their 60 ounce cokes and a dozen donuts every morning for breakfast...they don't give a dam.
The swells from Wellesley want to scream about some folks sky-diving and interfering with their cocktail hour but they could give two-hoots about the grunts getting maimed, blown-up, and killed. Their kids don't serve. No one they know serves.
Don't want to sound bitter, but served 36 years myself, all over the world, lost too many friends, and have seen way too many "horror-shows" for normal people to process. Too many kids crippled and horribly maimed.
It's not about flags, parades, or barbecues. It's about reflection and NOT wasting the precious resource of our youth in non-existential wars. Enough already...stop the madness.

USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 19:13:45
Yes, my Grandfather Richard E. has a marker denoting his service in the U.S. Life-Saving Service, as does Carl Olson's grandfather in a different cemetery. I think Jane Hamilton's GF's grave is similarly adorned.

I don't hold anyone accountable for not decorating veterans graves with flags.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 17:30:40
Richard - every year they are placed. There's holders that identify the vets and they stay in the ground year round and the flags are placed in them. I just mailed a contact of mine that runs the functions at the VFW. I will also call the cemetery commission tomorrow. This has been done forever and it's not acceptable this wasn't done. I have plenty of folks that have said they'd volunteer next year. If we had only known this year it would not have happened. It's a slap in the face to living vets and the families of those that are no longer with us.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 17:03:05
Judy: I think the flags are only placed for Memorial Day. Sometimes by now the ground would be frozen !

It occurred to me today, Veterans Day, that in the Chatham High School Class of 1957, 100% of the males went on to honorably serve in one branch of the military or another. It was sign up or be drafted. Things are certainly different now.

Verne Hunt, Coast Guard; John Pratt, Navy; Robert Borthwick, Air Force; John Chanberlin, Air Force; Carl Olson, Navy; Eddie Johnson, Army; Ross Gould, Army National Guard, myself, Navy x 20 years.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 16:51:48
I also am not in favor of a new COA.I too have gone buy many times of the year on different days and hours and very few vehicles are there.Maybe someone could go in and look at the space being used and might be able to plan it out differently.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 15:38:15
I went to pay my respects to my Dad today at the cemetery since he was a veteran. There were no flags placed on ANY of the veteran's graves. Does anyone know who's responsible for placing these flags?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 14:32:26
I feel until we have a Board of Selectmen that will hold these folks accountable nothing is going to change.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 10:45:34
Talked to a few more people over the weekend. Not one favors the new COA as planned. They MAY settle for a smaller building but even that may be a hard sell. We were surprised at how they reacted. They are so upset with how the town is being managed they have NO trust in the administrators.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/11/2019 - 08:13:00
Nancy just told me about it tonite at dinner. Just disgraceful it's not done yet. It's looking like maybe the summer? Who knows? No new date has been set.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 20:43:55
Come January, it will have been a year that I, representing the Ryder family, went before the Board of Selectmen to get permission to place a bronze plaque honoring David Ryder on the (then) soon to be recreated Fish Pier Observation Deck. Permission granted, with a few caveats. No problem there. No Town of Chatham expense.
That plaque has been cast. I certainly hope that all of Dave's family members live long enough to see the completion of the Deck, and the plaque mounted.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 16:48:58
For anyone that listens to them - all they do is whine. They certainly don't do much to present themselves in a positive light. I think I mentioned before the horrible, rude treatment I received from the director there when I needed help with family members. It was so awful I wrote a letter to Town manager and it was turned over to the former HR director for town. I'll never forget that. One of my good friends had the same experience with her father-in-law. People don't forget these things - especially with incompetent, rude people the town employs.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 10:29:51
When this whole thing started, a member of the Finance Comm said he had figures that say the elderly population was actually going to decrease, which brought howls from the COA staff. At least one other member of the Fin Comm does not seem to be in support of the current plan and wants a much smaller building too. As far as the Fish Pier, its about time somebody from the Town stood up in public and admits, "We blew it!!"
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 10:26:16
I hope they don't even get the requisite number of signatures to call a special town meeting. I also agree with Barbara. The current building has an elevator. They've been complaining for years about having three different floors there but all of their arguments are negated by the fact that an elevator provides them transportation.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 08:34:14
One thing for sure - there are a lot of people extremely unhappy with the size of the proposed building as well as the location. It's too bad the BOS did such a poor job on this. It's also disturbing to me they continue to use the same project management oversight team. I'd like to know what they've been paid so far . It makes me furious they are going to try for a special town meeting in January when so many folks are away.
How much more " progress" can actually be made in 4 months? I'm pretty confident in feeling this is not going to pass. It's too bad all the folks for this project were so adamant about what they wanted vs what is needed. I'm also amazed at how incredibly rude they were to me when I spoke against the proposed size. This reminds me of little children whining to get their way. It's time to put the brakes on this and time for the Selectmen to do the job they were elected to do - figure out a new location and decrease the size and just maybe it might pass.

Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/09/2019 - 06:59:19
The kitchen is 450 sf out of a total 11,155 sf. Making it smaller won't make much of a difference, especially if more square footage is needed for the third floor (elevator space, etc.). I'd think the only way to have a significantly smaller building would be to take out one of the two program rooms. If that space is absolutely needed, then the only other option for a smaller building is to have it on the Community Center site. It would be interesting to know the pros and cons of a 3 story 11,000 sf building on the existing site.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 13:42:01
Debbie - I'd be on board with that - totally. Barbara, not a clue about the elevator. It would most likely have to replaced.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 12:45:08
Is there no longer an elevator in the COA? If it's still there, why is the second floor not accessible?
Barbara Stevenson <Bejsteve@gmail.mail>
San Diego , CA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 11:47:11
So a 3 level building with a smaller kitchen and less parking on the existing site would be acceptable?
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 11:30:46
Debbie - they can get by with the parking there as we all have seen. They could use their "not accepted" below ground parking level and make a few rooms there. No need for a commercial kitchen. I'd like one of those as well for my house; but it's not necessary.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:33:39
What size building would be acceptable?
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:27:44
A final thought. A major problem is the upstairs of the current COA. Many people cannot access it. If that square footage was on the same level as the first floor, they may find they can get by pretty well.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:24:48
Judy, we need to get that point out there. We think a lot of people do want a smaller building and can support it. They will not vote for a building of this size. We seem willing to compromise but they want the larger version and will not settle for a smaller one.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 10:05:52
Alice - there is no doubt they need a new building. I totally support a smaller building and I'd vote for it. I will not vote for 1610 or any other place until the current building plans are reduced in size. Many of my friends feel the same way. As you said earlier - our generation will see very few users for a COA - no matter what type of spin Ms. Speakman tries to put on it. This seems to be a fact they are not able to accept. Granted, some will - but the majority will not.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 09:45:40
John, Another thing to think about. There are some, like us, who would and could support a smaller building. Overall, are not against a new COA, but believe a smaller building will do.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 09:13:18
Debbie has a great idea. I think we should take pictures every day. I totally agree with what you said. Absolutely no need for 1610 Main. For them to even consider having a special town meeting in January reeks of the "special" treatment certain folks get in this Town. It is time for everyone to speak out and put an end to this ridiculous spending. This needs to go to Town Meeting in May. That way we'll have more than enough time to document the minimal usage.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 08:57:05
John, We are not users of the COA either. We did take part in the survey a few years and voiced our opinions that we would not use COA. Did you? We see this as a temporary spike in use if we are to believe the numbers given us. Look at the VFW. Their membership is dyeing off every day. People are living their lives differently. We are more plugged into other things. We have many more options in our lives and so will not be using the COA. That's why we believe a larger building will not be used just a few years down the road.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 08:46:08
Stakeholders are driving this project. There should be an independent citizen committee that analyzes/confirms issues like the actual use of COA and Community Center building and grounds. (CC use should document only Chatham residents.)
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 07:26:59
In response to your question as to whether or not I believe those numbers - the answer is a solid "NO" - I don't. Drive by - the proof is there .
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 06:19:10
John - take a drive by the building every day for a while as I do. There are rarely over 5-7 cars there. There are times when the lot is full; however those times are few and far between. Certainly not enough to justify what they are looking for in terms of space in a new building. For those times they need extra space they can plan ahead and use the Community Center. One of the Selectmen said he goes on Thursday's and there's always a lot of folks there. That wasn't the case yesterday when I drove by.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/08/2019 - 06:16:19
I saw at least two posts saying that they wanted a "much smaller" COA building.
So...if one of the key reasons that the existing building needs to be replaced is because it's TOO SMALL to accommodate even the current needs, let alone potential increased usage, exactly HOW would a new building that's similar to or smaller than now meet that space need? Staff and users of COA have presented statistics showing the usage/demand. Do you not believe them? I'm NOT a user of COA so I'm more able to look at it objectively, I feel.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 22:54:11
Obviously, I left out a word but hopefully your brain filled in the missing part. Richard G.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:41:08
Prior to his appointment as Keeper of the newly constructed Old Harbor Life-Saving Station in 1897-98, Keeper Doane was the Keeper of the Chatham Life-Saving Station, which then was located very near Morris Island. Keeper Doane retired in 1915 when the USLSS became the USCG in January. Richard E. Ryder, then Surfman #1 at Old Harbor was then made Officer in Charge, USCG , of the Monomoy Station, not Monomoy Point.

If this is not relevant to Chatham history, I don't know could be more so.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:38:14
Yes. That is what I was referring to.
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 17:25:08
Is that a house that Keeper Hezekiah Doane of the U.S. Life-Saving Service once lived in?
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 16:46:03
Seaview St. was built in 1895. Zoned R20. Any proposed demo would therefore go to the Historical Commission, not HBDC, but I can't imagine it would be demolished. Extra lot will no doubt have new construction, maybe looking like the ones Eastward just built on Queen Anne and Shore Roads.
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 15:24:14
Hopefully the home on Seaview street will be saved by dint of its historic pedigree. Not sure but strongly think there's enough to save it. Maybe someone from HBDC will take an interest.
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 12:13:29
I have a problem with 1610 Main Street. It's time they started listening to the folks that are paying for these projects. There is no reason we should purchase land. NONE. Alice - they won't listen. My preference at this point is to vote it down, and let them come back with a much smaller, modified plan at the current location. This is exactly what happens when greed is involved and no management.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 09:59:29
It seems there are enough angry people to defeat the COA building. What then? Do we tell them to suck it up and stay where they are? Or do we demand a much smaller building ?[our preference} Having options and talking about them at Town Meeting would help to defeat it.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 09:05:02
I agree with others who say we do not need a new COA center.
chatham, MA USA - Thu 11/07/2019 - 07:49:58
Hold your bets. He wants to subdivide the property. You know what comes next.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 22:16:23
To add to the fray of what a mess this Town is, Eastward has purchased Sue Plumb's house on Seaview St. (Dr. Montbach's old house) Should we start placing our bets on what tasteless, goddam eyesore Dollar Bill might replace it with?
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 21:50:47
I wrote a letter to the BOS this morning re the current hic-ups in the projects at hand and the unsatisfactory responses from the Town regarding the way these projects have been handled. I wrote that I am disgusted they have allowed these projects to continue with the minimal oversight from employees. Taxpayers are paying exorbitant salaries for less than satisfactory job performances from the Town employees. In the real world these folks would be fired. I have asked them to do the job they were elected to do and provide feedback on the unsatisfactory performance of the Town Manager along with her managers. Some of you may not agree with me but that is certainly your prerogative. I for one, have absolutely had it with cover-ups and excuses from the Town Manager and Mr. Duncanson, along with the current BOS not doing anything to remedy these situations.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 12:36:06
Bruce - I am in agreement with you on this, and am confident that any future contracts will be significantly tighter and incorporate some/much of what you've suggested. And as I said and BOS did also, this project should have had an OPM on it from beginning in hindsight. Yes, it's an extra expense but can help avoid problems by being able to do certain things that the town may not be able to do directly and/or legally and provide better technical oversight than town resources.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 12:16:11
Understood, John. But price point is just one component of a contract. It seems to me that meeting deadlines with quality work is just as important. Contingencies covering this should be part of the bidding process.
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:41:35
Bruce - That's why I said lowest qualified bid because a lowball bid that is way out of range of the next 2-3 can be suspicious. Which is one of the reasons why the actual lowest bid for trap dock was rejected, along with some technical issues with paperwork, etc. that it had. The second thru forth lowest bids were grouped close enough such that Pomroy and town felt comfortable with that price point.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:34:47
Whether it's municipal or private/commercial, someone is still being contracted and paid to do a specific job by a specific time for an agreed to price. Being paid in phases for work satisfactorily completed by specific deadlines -- performance bonding, in other words -- should always be part of the bidding process. Always. The argument could be made that this is even more important on a municipal project because it is funded by taxpayers. It is understandable that certain rules exist to prevent corruption or sweetheart deals. But a municipality (or anyone, for that matter) should never be bound to accept the lowest bid. Otherwise, the lowball bid would win every time. We are really talking about fairness here. Municipal jobs should include performance bonding because that is the fair thing to do. If the laws don't accommodate that, then the laws should be changed. To Judy's point, we all have a voice at the voting booth. If we feel our leaders are not listening to us, then it is our responsibility to vote for someone else.
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:25:59
Believe John is right. You need to have reasons you can defend in court to refuse lower bids. We wish Our got the bid but the laws around this was an attempt to stop local corruption, sweetheart deals for various reasons.
When we told a friend about rebuilding the Trap Dock, she said 'Another part of the Chatham I love will be gone forever"

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 10:05:44
Remember that municipal projects have different rules than private/commercial and that includes possible legal action against town by the lowest qualified bidder and/or state if that bid isn't accepted as I understand it. And they don't have the option to specify where bidders are located, i also believe. A company can take a higher bid if they wish but municipalities can't.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 09:46:53
Alice - I believe someone did ask and was told they had to refer it to Town Counsel - and surprise - Town Counsel didn't get back to them. If anyone has heard - please let us know. Last count I was aware of, Jill had terminated over 84 employees and that was well over one year ago. Something is rotten here. The mere fact they didn't use Our for a mere $145K more to ensure a LOCAL firm for the new Trap Dock is disturbing as well. The town needs a management overhaul. I would also suggest writing letters to the BOA to discourage a "Special Town Meeting" in January when no one is here to vote on the new COA.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 08:51:25
We asked this question before. Is there a performance bond in effect? That is supposed to be our insurance in case the contractor does not finish work or had to be fired and another contractor brought in. Do not want to violate Johns' rules, but it is pretty well known that if you cross Jill; she can be vindictive. We have been told this by both present and past Town employees. We also had a very bad experience with her.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 08:24:40
John, I appreciate your point about using a "standard" contract since there have been no issues in the past. To answer your question "if they've never had this occur, how would you expect them to plan for it?", I would say by having certain contingencies in the contract that provide for phased payments only after specific deadlines have been met. Just as there are incentives offered for successfully completing a job ahead of schedule, it only seems fair that payments should be withheld when deadlines are not achieved, with the understanding, of course, that change orders may affect established schedules. The point is, all of this can be easily handled in a contract that provides for things like human error, etc. That's why we all buy insurance for ourselves and our homes and cars -- because we can't be sure of what is going to happen. Perhaps we can take a lesson from the mantra of those who sell mutual funds: "Past performance is no indication of future results." Just my 2 cents.
E Harwich, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 07:26:10
Bruce - There doesn't seem to be any accountability for anyone dealing with Town projects. The debacle in West Chatham could have been prevented had Temple had done his due diligence and physically examined the pipes. Had the paperwork been signed when it was supposed to on the fish pier maybe we would have had a different outcome. There was no excuse for delay after delay once the project started. Why weren't they fired? Why did Duncanson cover for them time after time? In the real world these people would be without jobs and Ms Goldsmith would have a warning on her record instead of collecting an exorbitant salary for poor performance. As far as the proposed COA being located at 1610 Main Street - using the same project overseer, pretty sure folks have absolutely had enough of this and that it won't pass. The Selectman don't appear to be listening to the people that elected them. We can fight back by not approving any more projects.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Wed 11/06/2019 - 06:04:13
Bruce - Given that contract was done prior to job beginning, when there was no indication that this extended delay would occur, and the basic contract apparently used was standard one that had been used previously multiple times with no issues, and this was first time this type situation has happened, it seems logical to see how this happen. Obviously it's a learning experience for all just like when a person makes a bad deal unknowingly but I don't think the entire thing can be the fault of the town when it's the contractor that caused the problem. In hindsight the town could/should have done some things differently but if they've never had this occur, how would you expect them to plan for it?
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 21:08:11
From Tim Wood in the 10/24 Chronicle on the Fish Pier project: "Although months behind schedule, the project remains within the budget, said Town Manager Jill Goldsmith. Although the original contract with Sciaba Construction was for $1.4 million, change orders approved requested by the town, involving the fuel system, raised the final cost to $1.6 million. To date the town has paid the contractor $1.2 million; 5 percent, or $67,522, will be held back pending approval of final construction." Sorry, but it is hard to understand why the Town of Chatham would agree to a contract that required such considerable payments in the face of numerous missed deadlines. Where does accountability figure into this? Am I missing something?
E Harwich, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 19:43:32
Way to go Chat-M-Room contributors! Haven't seen such a lively discussion for some time.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 17:20:19
Alice- The original bid was $1.478 Million. With change orders the new contractor cost is $1.611 Million. We've paid Roth Engineering, so fa,r for design and oversight since 4/2017 $382,000. Add to that Town Counsel costs, police details and Pomroy. We're at about $2million . Assuming no further change orders, the last 3 costs will continue to rise until complete.
Elaine <>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 14:10:34
So, WHO designed the Fish Pier Observation deck and at WHAT cost?
Emily Cunningham <>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 12:39:59
Debbie- All I can say to your comments is that if it is voted down, they are going to have to take another hard look at existing properties. 1610 absolutely should not be approved.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 12:25:42
John- Several years ago I went to the Orleans COA and I interviewed the Director. This was when an Adult Day Care addition was being considered for our COA.
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:39:40
Kathy, remember that:
1) The fish pier deck was not designed by the construction company.
2) It was designed primarily to be functional for the loads, location and environment that it's in, not just to look nice.

Debbie: But does Orleans offer totally comparable services/programs in theirs (other than the day care) for a similar number of users? If not, it's not a valid comparison. And was that building built to be more functional than ours which may have been constrained by making it look less commercial/municipal? I've never seen theirs.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:31:45
Regarding a new larger COA building, the existing building is 8,016 sf. Orleans, with the exact same demographic, has a COA that's 8,745 sf AND it includes Adult Day Care. Amazing!
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:18:24
'Free Cash' is not free is right, John. It all comes out of the taxpayer's pockets regardless of where it ends up. The fish pier observation deck is a joke and not attractive at all for such a prominent place in town. As a former resident, I certainly would like to hear and or read that the folks in Chatham got out to vote and will take their town back. Are there even enough Chathamites left to do that?
Kathy <>
Sebastian, FL USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:09:57
For the BOS to schedule a "Special Election" in the middle of the winter when people are away, is a HUGE disgrace to the voting public. One of my friends told me this morning this town reeks of cronyism and bad deals. Nothing could be closer to the truth. Cynthia - in total agreement with you. I hope folks wise up and write letters and vote against this. As far as the fish pier is concerned, all I can say is the BOS parted ways with the Harwich Town Adminstrator - maybe time for Chatham to do the same - along with Dr. Bob. Pay out the contracts and lets move on. No need for a management team that trips over themselves at every single step they take.
Judy P. <>
W. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 10:03:04
Alice, in MA municipal accounting, there actually is a account called 'Free Cash'. You'll see/hear numerous references to it when budgets are discussed. It doesn't mean that it's free as in no cost, but that it's free from being specifically linked to another account/item. I'm not 100% sure but I think it's whatever money is left unspent by other accts at end of year and is returned back to this general pool acct.
I don't believe this project will require a Prop 2 1/2 override.
The COA has the data to prove that existing building is not adequate for current or projected future use so having a new somewhat larger building seems reasonable even though I'm not a user of it at this time.

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 09:40:23
First things first. We were under the impression the Main St location was under the expanded landing path. We saw we were wrong about this. We did laugh when Jill said we could buy the land with "FREE CASH" No such thing. We will go to Town Meeting, sit quietly and just vote "NO". Does this require a prop 2 1/2 override? If it does, another chance to kill it.
Do people really move here because it has a COA? we think not.
Remember what Mark Twain said" There are liars, damned liars, and then there are politicians" We are seeing pretty good examples of that here!

Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 08:32:03
No more voting on big projects at a town meeting. Discuss them yes. Vote no. Vote on big money items at the ballot box.
Cynthia Moore <>
South Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 08:00:19
There should not be a special town meeting for this DOA project. It really is time to stop the nonsense. I wonder if we push through a special town meeting if we can vote to stop the W Chatham roadway project? This town is a joke. Time for heads to roll. There are no excuses for incompetence- NONE.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 06:05:21
Oops....of course I meant the CONTRACTOR of the debacle at the Fish Pier is suing the Town, not the Fish Pier! Sorry!
Emily Cunningham <>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 06:01:19
OMG there is absolutely NO excuse for the horrible MESS this Town is in! Heads should roll! How can our highly paid professionals, elected officials, FinCom members and the rest of the voters sit back and watch mistake after mistake? The Fish Pier suing the Town? Choosing 1610 for the COA (should be DOA) saying the seniors could bicycle to their activities?, the trap dock will be next......yikes, I am glad to be leaving for CA tomorrow......but I will be back to vote at Town Meeting in May, and they better not DARE to have a special Town Meeting before! Disgusting!
Emily Cunningham <>
Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 05:45:33
To each his own John. You can defend them all you want. What do you think about the front page of today's paper where the contractor at the Fish Pier is suing the Town? Wouldn't be poor management would it??
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Tue 11/05/2019 - 05:35:01
Points to consider:
1) Wasn't just incorrect forms, as there were three other significant issues and the bid was too much difference from next three which is a bad indication.
2) RB Our bid was approximately $145K more than winning bid. Too much of a premium to pay for local company.
3) Pomroy is NOT an engineer but an OPM. And he was brought in later on fish pier project to try and get it handled properly. Maybe if he'd been involved from beginning, another company would have gotten the construction job as I believe his firm can do some reference checking that town employees can't legally do.

J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 23:05:00
Let's call the Community Center what it really is: The Chatham Recreation Center. Why do senior recreation offerings have to take place in a COA facility? I don't get this. Seniors could be bussed to the Community Center for their yoga and exercise classes if they can't manage to get there on their own. I'd think that might allow for a smaller COA building if located somewhere other than the Community Center. Oh well, guess it's too late.
Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 22:18:19
The BOS voted to recommend 1610 Main Street for our new COA. Not going to support it - no way. I hope others feel the same.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 21:24:59
Lowest bid was thrown out due to incorrect forms filled out by bidder. . Won't award it to local firm of R. B. Our. Time frame is to start in December and finish in May. Using the same Engineer as fish pier - Pomeroy. Need I say more?
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 19:26:45
Listening to Duncanson at BOS meeting talking about the trap dock wishlist for the next major screw up. Just unbelievable.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 19:08:57
Actually, it was called Surfmens Mutual Benefit Association. One of the founders was from Provincetown. Hard to believe, but Surfmen of color were excluded. Very sad.
Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:43:37
I worked for Castell Kelly (son of Joe Kelley of the USLSS) and his wife Ruby (Bloomer) also a descendant of members of the USLSS, at Ruby's Dry Cleaning Shop in West Chatham. There were no union dues there .

Do you think members of the USLSS paid union dues? No, they paid in to a group called the Surfmen's Mutual Benevolent Association, ( SMBA, ) but their dues were voluntary!!!!!

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:38:51
When I worked at the A&P store around 1954-55 or so (now Ben Franklin) one of my first paychecks showed a deduction for "Union Dues". I asked the manager, what is this for? He said, the A&P is a Union shop, and everyone is required to be a member. Since I was the son of a fisherman, I had not heard of such a thing. You fish, you earn some share of the catch. Nobody takes anything from you, whether you catch anything or not.

Unions were anathema to me, even in the Navy. Since I had a bunch of civilian employees at two of my duty stations, I had to deal with their Unions. AFGE, etc.

Yes, I know that unions were essential for helping employees, especially women back when, get better pay and working conditions.
The contrast between the Fish Pier observation deck reconstruction job (union members maybe?), and the fishermen who make a separate economy run, without being union dues paying, is quite apparent.

Richard Gould Ryder
Eastham, MA USA - Mon 11/04/2019 - 17:11:25
Let's talk about Unions.
BobR <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 23:11:17
Alice, the Town had it good when Hinchey was Town Manager. Everything went to hell after he did not get his contract renewed by the BOS.
Jared Fulcher
North Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 19:11:20
How many more millions are these new projects going to add up to? Is the Town trying to out do all the McMansions built around town? How can we vote for ANY of them at this point? Agree or disagree, it doesn't seem we had these troubles when Bill Henchey was in command.
Alice <>
S. Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 18:46:43
Time for the craziness to stop. No more until we fix what we have. I cannot be the only one that feels this way!
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 11:04:39
Next in line is the trap dock reconstruction (see tomorrow's BOS agenda). Then comes the upwelling building that's to be constructed on pilings next to the Mitchell River Bridge, followed by a redo of the Harbormaster's office. COA folks will say that they've waited patiently for their turn (after DPW, Community Center, police and fire stations, Community Development building, high school, tech school) and construction costs will only go up.
Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 10:16:08
What an absolute shame this beautiful little town I grew up in has been ruined by people that think they know what's best for all. I think the rotary project should just be stopped. No other projects should even be considered until the Fish Pier is completely done. Town Management has shown they are not capable of managing projects at all. Just a shame the Town is in shambles.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sun 11/03/2019 - 07:31:26
Seems to me that Elaine and I are the only people who care enough( besides the fishermen) who have actually been on cite observing. If you are SO sure that railing is temporary, then Pomroy should make a public statement to that effect. Completion date? Doesn't look good for next summer.
Emily Cunningham <>
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 12:46:14
The "no way" wire (similar to lobster trap grating)- that Emily saw is permanent. Pomroy would tell you that if you asked him..
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 12:01:31
The idea that I spent hours on this is just laughable and ridiculous as I probably spent no more than 20 minutes to locate the quotes, time stamps, web references,etc. but it was done intermittently over a few hours. And given that Emily said she saw wire there recently, I would still believe that's the temporary/OSHA one. Based on his background and my prior experience with him, I am going to believe Rick Pomroy on this. The posts might be intended as permanent but in no way would that wire be.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 10:18:50
Apparently this isn't on the agenda for Monday. Plenty of time to get this fixed ?? Doubtful.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 09:24:41
Elaine - it'll be interesting Monday listening to Duncanson trying to worm his way into an explanation that he's hoping folks will believe. . So many levels of incompetence it's unbelievable. His smarmy attitude while trying to explain is condescending. We'll listen to him and the BOS pontificating ad nauseum and nothing will change. I can't believe more folks don't speak out and demand the BOS put an end to this nonsense and demand resignations from the Town Manager and Duncanson . No action on so many projects . The taxpayers deserve more than these highly paid examples of incompetence.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 08:41:46
I swore I wasn't going to do this but those reading this page deserve to know the facts. I don't need a recap, John. I was there. You have just spent hours attempting to defend this project management-again. You and they were wrong. The railings they told the BOS and the public were temporary for worker safety were NOT and that's a serious problem when they don't know. It was the frame for the PERMANENT railing. Their assertions to the contrary don't inspire confidence. I know this for a fact because I have a series of photos from the TeleCam where workers began installing the PERMANENT railing on 9-23 right up until the meeting you referenced where staff said they were temporary. I have sent the BOS and staff the photos and expect them to acknowledge that fact at the next meeting. Facts matter when safety is involved.I won't hold my breath for an apology from you.
Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 07:37:27
John - if what you said is true about OSHA and the flimsy railing - then it's not protecting the workers; ergo, still not safe.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 07:36:16
Elaine - Addendum: Watch the video of that meeting at approx 03:46:20 for about 20 seconds where Dr Bob says portions of railing are temporary. Then also at approx 04:25:00 for about 1 minute where Rick Pomroy answers Jeff Dykens re the temporary railing. Ok, so the term OSHA may not have been spoken, but it's due to their rules/regs that the temporary ones are required.

Found this on web also:
"OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1926.750(b)(1)(iii). The standard reads as follows:
Floor periphery - safety railing. A safety railing of 1/2-inch wire rope or equal shall be installed, approximately 42 inches high, around the periphery of all temporary - planked or temporary metal-decked floors of tier buildings and other multifloored structures during structural steel assembly."

Now doesn't that sound almost exactly what Emily described as the "flimsy little, wire, 3ft high"? Certainly does to me...

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Sat 11/02/2019 - 00:40:40
Elaine - If you were paying attention at the Oct 21 BOS meeting as I was, you would have heard that there is a TEMPORARY railing as required by OSHA for workplace fall protection while the project is UNDER CONSTRUCTION, ok? Maybe you need to better understand what occurs on certain construction sites/workplaces before making uninformed statements.

My facts on that are accurate, though I may not have said it using the exact same verbiage. For reference, see the final two sentences of the DRAFT Minutes for that meeting which say: "Mr. Pomroy said the railing system is not complete. He said he will request a section be fully installed so the final product can be seen by interested members of the public"

J. Hallgren (as user)
S Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 22:53:16
P.S John. What the heck does OSHA have to do with this? "Sounds like"? This isn't a 'workplace".It's a public observation deck with 3000 people a day in the summer. And unless there is public pushback, it is NOT temporary- it's permanent. Get your facts straight. Words have consequences.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 20:11:50
Emily, you are absolutely right. John- You need to stop defending the indefensible. Don't speculate or assume . Those railings are low and unsafe. Lives are at risk.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:51:43
Amy - I feel the exact same way. Thank you.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:38:14
My guess is, if there is no reconsideration of other sites or reconsideration of the project as a whole (senior center vs. inter generational center), the town meeting will not support the project and we'll be back here in another year still discussing what to do. Maybe that's a good thing. I'd rather see nothing done at this point than an overbuilt building.
USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 19:20:06
Emily, that wire railing sounds like the OSHA required construction safety one, and not the permanent one, which was to be only installed on a small portion initially as a way if verifying it's going to be correct.
J Hallgren (as User)
So. Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 18:22:43
Everyone should take a good look at the Fish Pier project. Not much activity, but today Dr.Bob was there with two guys waving his arms around and talking a lot. I could not hear what he was saying, but the flimsy little, wire, 3 ft high, visitor railing is worse than a joke.....might kill a tourist! Think of children up there.
Emily Cunningham <>
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 15:47:20
OK, thanks. Check the packet. I predict no reconsideration.
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 14:21:27
Debbie - I'm not comfortable doing that. Guess we'll see what happens Monday.
Judy P
W Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 13:23:23
Judy- It appears there's not much interest in this subject. Before we leave it, might you be willing to post the points mentioned in your Selectman's well thought out response?
Chatham, MA USA - Fri 11/01/2019 - 10:53:54
Better than a dull line

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